Data Depravity- Garmin-Jepp

[Piloto]

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20080925X01531&ntsbno=CHI08FA282&akey=1 Note the comments on their examination of the currency of the charts... Sent using Tapatalk

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20080925X01531

See "Probable Cause" at the end of the page. Non precision approaches minimums are typically 500ft or more. Maybe he didn't set his altimeter properly.

 

José 

[yvesg]

I suspect "someone" has long ago figured out how to decode and copy the Jepp data.  However, "he" is probably in jail.

 

There's a rea$on that Garmin developed proprietary data protocols.

I am wondering if this would be considered criminal behavior? Is the data itself proprietary?

Yves

[MB65E]

Not if it's government issued data. Not sure where/when the service providers stamp their code on it. Just pulled the trigger on the Garmin updates for the GTNs vs Jepp at work. Just couldn't justify the nearly $2k each for the unlock cards.

Jose- we all see your point, but I'd just rather not recieve a violation in an IFR environment because I didn't cross check my expired data. It's expensive to have the services, but even more expensive in court. It only takes one glitch for ATC to say please call this number when you land.

-Matt

[Piloto]

I am wondering if this would be considered criminal behavior? Is the data itself proprietary?

Yves

If the data itself would be considered propietary it belongs to the tax payers. But Jeppesen does not pay the FAA for it.

 

What the FAA should have done on the NextGen program is to make the data available on a public format on the internet for all aircraft owners. Then the GPS manufacturers would provide with each unit sold a software program for PCs that will convert the FAA data to a programing device for your GPS data card. This would have saved the aircraft owners from paying $1Ks/year/GPS This of course will take Jeppessen out of business. But instead the FAA went spending a billion dollar for an ADS-B/UAT infrastructure that only benefits the piston planes that cannot afford XM\WX $30/month service. The flying public will still have the same airline delays and cancellations. And GA owners have to spend over $3K (or more if not WAAS equipped) for ADS-B equipment. Where are the benefits of the NextGen program? 

 

José      

[Piloto]

Not if it's government issued data. Not sure where/when the service providers stamp their code on it. Just pulled the trigger on the Garmin updates for the GTNs vs Jepp at work. Just couldn't justify the nearly $2k each for the unlock cards.

Jose- we all see your point, but I'd just rather not recieve a violation in an IFR environment because I didn't cross check my expired data. It's expensive to have the services, but even more expensive in court. It only takes one glitch for ATC to say please call this number when you land.

-Matt

Believe me it is much cheaper to cross check than paying $2K.

 

José 

[carusoam]

Gathering up the ideas in one place...

The supplier is annoying enough customers that they are collectively discussing legal alternative methods of obtaining government produced data for their nav boxes...

Supplier type 1 (G, Aspen or BK), $1000+/year

- BK KLN90B updated by removing radio from the IP to swap out a cartridge. RS232 connection or DOS got stale after a decade...

- Modern devices require 'special' front mounted data cards.

Supplier type 2 ( WingX or foreflight), $150/year

- updated by wifi while I eat breakfast at home.

Is this the same data that goes through the same quality controls?

I can see why a single update per year is enough for some people.

- VOR to VOR used as primary nav...

- Technically driven by a GPS with an aged database, but VORs and their intersection are confirmed to not move via chart/ipad

- VOR/ILS or visual approaches only...

It is difficult to spend $1000 per year for most people. Apparently, the only thing you get that is different is GPS approaches and direct flight.

That's hard to justify for a dozen flights per year...

Having a second GPS in the panel is even less economicaly sensible. How often does a modern navigator fail?

Not saying to use something outdated for primary navigation.

The suppliers can do better to keep us happy.

If you bought one database it would be beneficial to

- work on all GPSs in the plane....

- Wifi updatable from my kitchen iPad.

- not exceed the $150 per year subscription price.

How well did I do?

VP of the CB club,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

Just show me one NTSB report where the "probable cause" was due to an expired database.

 

José

Exactly. Big picture, the risk is small. However, in the world of FAA legalities, certification, insurance, personal injury and lawyers, complying with your aircraft's paperwork may be significant.

[Mooneymite]

1. How many times have you done IFR approaches in actual IMC conditions in between updates.

2. How many different airports you fly in between database updates.

3. How many times have you seen frequency changes to airports you fly to in year.

 

José

Don't forget updates to airspace. ATL recently had a major change to its Class B. Anyone navigating around it with expired data would certainly have an interesting day. I've noticed significant recent changes in other Class B cities, too.

As long as you always cross-check with current sources of nav-data, you can avoid those pesky letters, but at some point the risk/reward scale tips toward having current data.

Each of us makes that individual judgement. A private pilot who gets a 90 day suspension can shrug his shoulders, but someone who depends on his ATP for an income will be without a paycheck for three months.

Different folk, different levels of comfort.

[AndyFromCB]

I forgot the movie, but the quote was "never feel sorry for a man who owns a plane". 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw

 

I love how everyone thinks that the data should be essentially free. And who is going to pay the millions for IS&T team's salaries that makes it all happen. Programmers and QA folks are not cheap. I know, I sign the payroll every two weeks. Last time I looked at Garmin's annual report, their aviation division is not exactly the most profitable of them all.

[KSMooniac]

Don't forget updates to airspace. ATL recently had a major change to its Class B. Anyone navigating around it with expired data would certainly have an interesting day. I've noticed significant recent changes in other Class B cities, too.

As long as you always cross-check with current sources of nav-data, you can avoid those pesky letters, but at some point the risk/reward scale tips toward having current data.

Each of us makes that individual judgement. A private pilot who gets a 90 day suspension can shrug his shoulders, but someone who depends on his ATP for an income will be without a paycheck for three months.

Different folk, different levels of comfort.

In my limited experience, flying in/around the Class B places is where the changes happen most frequently, and filing /G can get you unexpected clearances to obscure intersections that are hard to spell, much less find on a chart or plate!  With current data we can get the spelling clarified and then drop it into the flight plan on the fly...easy enough.  Without, you can be in a real pickle on a congested frequency trying to get a different clearance to something you can find.  I've gotten some that appear on a plate and not on the en-route chart, and that is an eye-opener.  Of course even if you have the current plate you cannot navigate to many of these if they're not in the database.  (or at least I don't think one can...)

[M016576]

I understand your dilemma but for me is what makes common sense, specially when spending my money. Just ask yourself

1. How many times have you done IFR approaches in actual IMC conditions in between updates.

2. How many different airports you fly in between database updates.

3. How many times have you seen frequency changes to airports you fly to in year.

I have a 530W and an Aera 560 with databases expired on both of them. And never had any issue operating them. To the airports that I regularly fly I am very familiar so I do not need a database update to tell me the same as the previous one did. In any case if you are under IMC you are going to be under ATC control and they will asign you the frequencies not the database. And most likely they will vector (or you can request) you to the final approach leg until you intercept. I have yet to see this leg alignment (runway aligned) change on any of the airports that I fly to. And there is the option of doing and ILS approach that requires no database update on your 430W or NAVCOM.

Maybe I am a wacko pilot but I am puzzle by so many obsessed of having their database updated at the end of the period. To me it just don't make sense. But it does to Jeppessen, they just got you addicted.

José

I do the exact same thing. Trying to keep paying for all these subscriptions will put you in the poor house.

Check out the following Apps for your iPad and iPhone, to those of you that fly with them:

AVCharts (only for iPad)- one time purchase of 20 bucks, and you get all the approach plates, updated every month, for life.

SkyChartsPro- works on both iPad and iPhone. Has all the charts (sectionals, IFR low, IFR high), plus approach plates, field diagrams and is updated every month. 20 dollar one-time purchase. It has a limited flight planning capability and moving map capability now, as well as current TAF's and METARS too. You NEED this app (if you're cheap like me and refuse to pay all these yearly subscription fees to garmin, foreflight or whoever else).

[M016576]

In my limited experience, flying in/around the Class B places is where the changes happen most frequently, and filing /G can get you unexpected clearances to obscure intersections that are hard to spell, much less find on a chart or plate! With current data we can get the spelling clarified and then drop it into the flight plan on the fly...easy enough. Without, you can be in a real pickle on a congested frequency trying to get a different clearance to something you can find. I've gotten some that appear on a plate and not on the en-route chart, and that is an eye-opener. Of course even if you have the current plate you cannot navigate to many of these if they're not in the database. (or at least I don't think one can...)

Here's an easy fix to that- don't file /G. Use the traditional navaids, and back yourself up with the panel mount in an advisory capacity. Honestly, if you don't claim /G as a capability, you'll probably get more help from ATC (ie vectors vice "fly to XXXXX").

Or pay the $300-$1200 a year, and file /G.

Decisions... Decisions...

Hard to spend all that money on a fancy panel and not keep it updated though. I know I go through this thought process at least a few times a year.

[ArtVandelay]

Here's an easy fix to that- don't file /G. Use the traditional navaids, and back yourself up with the panel mount in an advisory capacity. Honestly, if you don't claim /G as a capability, you'll probably get more help from ATC (ie vectors vice "fly to XXXXX").

Or pay the $300-$1200 a year, and file /G.

Decisions... Decisions...

Hard to spend all that money on a fancy panel and not keep it updated though. I know I go through this thought process at least a few times a year.

If flying to an airport that only has gps approaches you have to file /G, yes?

If flying local or vfr I agree that updating DB not necessary, but if flying x-country IFR, not knowing if you will need to deviate and to where, I would want my DB current.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kortopates]

I do the exact same thing. Trying to keep paying for all these subscriptions will put you in the poor house.

Check out the following Apps for your iPad and iPhone, to those of you that fly with them:

AVCharts (only for iPad)- one time purchase of 20 bucks, and you get all the approach plates, updated every month, for life.

SkyChartsPro- works on both iPad and iPhone. Has all the charts (sectionals, IFR low, IFR high), plus approach plates, field diagrams and is updated every month. 20 dollar one-time purchase. It has a limited flight planning capability and moving map capability now, as well as current TAF's and METARS too. You NEED this app (if you're cheap like me and refuse to pay all these yearly subscription fees to garmin, foreflight or whoever else).

 

If that's all you want,check out FltPlan.com for your iPhone and iPad. It has all approach plates for US & Canada;  VFR Charts for US and IFR charts for US, Canada and Caribbean and much, much more including performance based flight planning - all for FREE.

[Bob - S50]

Jose your logic is sound but at is said above^ my Garmin GNS430W AFMS spcifically states that I must have a current database loaded in the unit or verify that the approach data is current. Instrument approaches must be accomplished in accordance with an approved instrument approach procedure that is loaded from the 400W series unit database.

 

How can I do that? Are you just pulling an IAP off the internet and checking to see if it has changed since you last updated your database? What do you do if it has?

Cruiser,

 

I think it is always safest to have an up to date database and that is what our partnership does.  However...

 

"..I must have a current database loaded in the unit or verify that the approach data is current.." 

 

Notice the word 'or'.  To me that means if I look at the approach plate to find when it was last changed, and that date is prior to the date of my database, then I can fly the approach.  How do I find the approach plate date?  I need to look two places.  Bottom left and upper right. It won't always have both. In some cases it may have a plain date like 25DEC12.  In other cases it may have a 5 digit number like 13255.  That means the 255th day of 2013.  That would be some time in September.  Whichever of the two dates (upper right or lower left) is most recent, that is the one I have to compare my database with.

 

"..an approved instrument approach procedure that is loaded from the 400W series unit database.."

 

To me that means (and I think the AIM addresses this) I have to be able to select the approach from the database.  For example, it would have to list the RNAV(GPS) RWY 17 at KTIW as one of the approaches that I can select if I want to fly that approach.  If that approach is not selectable, I can't fly the approach.  I may ...not... build the approach by entering all the names of all the fixes that make up the approach.

 

With that said, we initially delayed buying a subscription, figuring we could do just what I detailed above.  However, it became such a PITA if you wanted to go cross country.  You would have to check the date of every approach at every airport you might want/need to use.  Just took too long.  At that point we just decided (4 or us) to suck it up and buy the subscription.

 

Depending on how you use your plane, you might make a different decision.

 

Bob