Wheel snubbers??

[VetRepp]

OK this is a stupid question and I should know, but I've just transitioned to a M20R from M20K. On my old plane I used to tap brakes prior to gear up to stop spinning, but I can't seem to remember to do it on this plane. I know some planes have wheel snubbers or other systems to stop the tire from spinning in the well. Is there any such system on the M20R?

Thanks

[mikesalman]

I could never remember to tap my brakes after takeoff in my F and I have almost 40 hours in it. I hope I'm not causing any damage to anything.

[Jeev]

You are good... I have over 700 hrs in my J and I rarely tap my brakes with no noticeable negative effects.

[TWinter]

I'm glad others are forgetting as well. Seems like after I'm airborne and checking to make sure that everything is in the green, visual scanning for traffic, trees, safe abort landing areas etc, I often forget the infamous toe-tap. After the gear is tucked away I suddenly think, "Crap, forgot to tap the brakes, got to remember that..urgh". Glad to see I'm not the only one who forgets.

[DAVIDWH]

Let em spin. The forward centrifugal gyroscopic forces will only enhance

 

centerline directional control.

 

Wilbur and Orville never toe tapped.

 

No comment about their lack of wheels and wheel wells.

[Dave Marten]

Gents,

 

No need or benefit to tapping brakes on retraction. Just concentrate on make a safe takeoff/climbout. Not a Mooney requirement nor even a valid technique I'd recommend.

[Hank]

It's in my Owners Manual, though.

[Dave Marten]

Hank,

 

For C models its in the OM, but so is a hand propping discussion. The toe tap was dropped somewhere before the J. I'm assuming its a Johnson-bar thing, but I doubt if it there is any notable difference in your J-bar force whether you tap or not.

 

For the electric gear birds no tap.

 

If I'm flying an M20C (OM steps below). I will omit step 1, and there is no way I will consider accomplishing step 3 as published prior to step 4. I'm not gonna touch that prop until fully cleaned up and passing at least 1000' agl and then maybe I'll roll the rpm back to a 2600RPM C model cruise climb. Really? reducing RPM at step 3 even prior to establishing a climb out attitude (step 5).

 

"As soon as the Mark 21 is airborne and under good control, perform the following procedures:

1. Apply brakes to stop wheel rotation.

2. Retract the gear.

3. Reduce the propeller rpm to2550-2600.

4. Retract the flaps.

5. Establish climb-out attitude."

 

I guess I have a couple beefs with the vintage Mooney Owners Manual. Probably a good discussion for the Vintage forum. I'm not an expert in the vintage models, but I'm trying to learn.

[Hank]

That list looks familiar, even though I fly a Ranger with electric gear, not a manual Mark 21. Having read Bob Kromer's articles, I do not reduce throttle or RPM on climb out.

I always thought brake tapping had something to do with the wheels scrubbing in the wells. When I get home, I'll look in the book and see what it says, there are decent explanations of some steps to be found.

That being said, I rarely remember the brakes, but I also have the gear switch thrown around treetop level, and I've never been to sequoia or redwood country. Just like a missed approach, and as written in the book: positive rate, gear up; clear of obstacles, flaps up (when used); track the projected centerline.

[fantom]

.....as written in the book: positive rate, gear up; clear of obstacles, flaps up (when used); track the projected centerline.

Is (when used) really in your book?

[VetRepp]

Thanks for all the replies. The discussion seems to have veered into whether we should or shouldn't (a PIC decision), and what's in the POH.

My feeling about POH is that there are a lot of good piloting procedures not necessarily included and that they represent the manufacturers Minimums.

The reason for my original post was the tires and any preventative actions that would be best on hardware (for the rare instance when spinning could be a problem). Since Mooney Gear swing sideways, any issue with spinning would affect the sidewalls.

So my question, from Post #1, is ..

Does any one know if Mooney incorporates any mechanism to stop tire rotation on retraction in the Ovation (which would make a toe tap unnecessary)? If so what?

Thanks for all the insight

Roger

[Hank]

Is (when used) really in your book?

No, for takeoff it says, "Flaps--Takeoff or as desired."

I am not aware of anything that makes the wheels stop spinning, aside from the brakes, and nothing at all to stop the nose wheel from spinning.

[fantom]

Thanks Hank...

[DaV8or]

I believe the reason to tap the brakes is to in theory, make it easier either for your arm in the case of the Johnson bar, and the actuator in the case of the electric gear. If you have ever played with a spinning bicycle wheel off the bike, you'll know that the wheel requires a certain amount of force to displace it and move it from it's steady state. It's why we don't fall over riding a bike. One of Newton's laws.

 

In practice though on a Mooney, I'm not sure how much difference there really is. The manual gear guys could tell us if they think they can tell the difference. I've never flown manual gear, so I don't know. I do have the original 20:1 gears in my actuator, so that combined with habit drilled into me by instructors in the past means I do tap the brakes.

 

To the OP- no, there is no mechanical device in any Mooney to stop wheel rotation when retracted. I suspect that if stopping the wheel from rotating were really critical and important, either Mooney, the FAA, or both would have required some sort of device as you suggest.

I would say tap 'em if you want to, or skip it. It is one thing on a check list that if you forget, really doesn't matter.

[Seth]

I tend to tap them to stop rotation just before gear up. As mentioned, the rotation of the wheel on the arm of the actuator increases the force required greatly to retract the gear - less wear and tear on the retraction system (actuator or human arm, and components) if you tap your brakes to stop rotation of the main wheels prior to raising your gear. Obviously the nose gear will

Continue to spin, but the wheel retracts differently with the nose gear.

-Seth

[Bob_Belville]

I think this is a mute point.

• How do you stop the nose wheel? It comes up right beside your feet, do not sense it is still spinning?
• Next time you have your plane on jacks, try to spin a tire, get it going as fast as you can and see how long it takes to stop. I'm pretty sure my wheels have stopped w/o brakes before the gear is secured and I am an experienced and fast JBar actuator. 

[Hank]

I've watched Cessna with marks on the tires take off. They stop spinning around treetop level, and my gear is usually up before then.

[Bob_Belville]

Depends on the height of the trees. I'd say I don't raise gear much below 100' AGL.

[Hank]

Depends on the height of the trees. I'd say I don't raise gear much below 100' AGL.

 

Why wait so long?

 

Maybe I got into the habit living on a 3001' field with trees at both ends. By the time I've rotated and established climb, there's no usable runway left to land on, so I just reduce the drag and keep climbing. I'm not as fast as some J-bar types I've seen, who must be raising the gear while in ground effect.

[Bob_Belville]

Yeah, I have 5500' so I might be able to put it back down.

[VetRepp]

I retract after trimmed with a positive rate of climb established, and not enough runway remaining to land straight ahead if needed.

My old K had some rub marks in the wheel well of the front tire so I know at least sometimes it was still spinning on retract. With the brakes on the mains they may stop spinning sooner but I would hope there is minimal resistance to free spinning on them.

Some planes have a canvas strip that the tire hits to stop before full retraction into the wells (on tires that retract forward / backward).

I hadn't thought about the affect on the actuators with increased force and spinning, that's a good point. I guess anything I can do to make it easier and less expensive on my bird is worth a try (but of course fly the airplane first).

So I'll continue the old habit, when I remember

[orionflt]

I never Tap my C and there are no problems. I also check ed to make sure they were not rubbing in the wheel well. as for noticeable force using the johnson bar.... no difference.

 

Brian

[Dave Marten]

VetRepp,

 

Just to be clear - There is no purpose to tapping the brakes on your M20R. Just fly the plane. If your main wheel tires are contacting anything in the wheel well you have a rigging problem. You're flying an Ovation 2, flush your old habit.