Crosswind Configuration

[CoachTom]

Crosswind: 90° to Approach: 15 G 20.

 

What do you do?

 

-Crab to "de-crab" at Threshold?

-Slip on short final for ease of alignment?

-Do you use full flaps (heard slower airspeed, the less effect the gust will have on wing)?

-Half Flaps?

-Increase of airspeed?

 

After landing: aileron into wind (How much? full? half? Wait for wing to lift and then adjust?)

 

Rudder authority? How hard do "feel" comfortable doing as the nose wheel turns into the cross wind and could start a ground loop?

 

Do you dump the flaps as soon as you stabilize with all three wheels on the ground?

 

Thanks!

 

TMcD

1980 M20K

KHSV

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

You are just trying to cause trouble.

 

I think we have argued about this in the past.

[orionflt]

those winds, wing down top rudder, approach flaps hold nose off until both mains are planted. neutral rudder as nose settles, aileron into the wind as necessary, flaps up on roll out usually just before turning off the runway.

 

Now 40G50 is another story and not something i would do everyday, but I have done it in my mooney. flaps approach, airspeed 3-5 MPH faster then normal, crab into the wind (not enough rudder to go wing down top rudder) over the runway decrab as the mains settle, dump flaps when all gear is planted (stable) on the ground.....let out a big sigh of relief.......... oh wait i forgot about the part where i hit the wind sheer on short final...... as I was over the threshold I hit windsheer, I knew it was there because a friend of mine was flying from the right seat on the first approach and i had to take over and do a go around. because i was expecting it, i was carrying about 10 mph extra speed on final, we passed the area we encountered the initial windsheer and were probably 20-30 ft agl over the end of the runway slowing when we hit another microburst and the plane started dropping like a rock. I immediately initiated wind sheer escape procedures....full power nose up about 8 degrees. it only took a few long seconds but my rate of decent was arrested  and i was just waiting for a positive rate of climb when i touched down nicely on centerline....i immediately chopped power pulled the flaps and rolled out like it was an everyday landing.

the truth of the matter is I would not have attempted the second approach if I had realized just how bad the windsheer was, but I have had other pilots try landing my mooney from the right seat before and most of them get slow and tend to pull the nose up on landings so as soon as i see that they are not correcting enough i apply power and take it around, with the bumpy ride we were getting, the winds and his unfamiliarity with my plane i was expecting to take over and did still relatively high and before the worst of the windsheer. I did perform several other landings that day at my home field where the cross wind component was only about 35G45 with no windsheer and the plane handle great. it is nice to know that we have a platform that is so durable in most conditions I would never have gone out in a 172 or a small piper that day, but never though twice about taking the mooney up. Now I do have a friend that would take his 170 up, but that is another story in it's self.

 

Brian

[Danb]

Brian I like your description seems as though I may have been behind you that day (not really) I was going into Tunica and rec'd a windshear alert thought I did all the right things but put a flat spot on the tires, luckier than the Cirrus behind me who had his aircraft demolished and towed off luckily he was nor hurt, an hour before the guy in the FBO stated a Mooney was in there a couple hrs. earlier and had a prop strike..I got off buying a tire. The wind shear encountered was weird in that just prior to touchdown and I  was I thought in perfect position and then was in a helicopter just hovering about 10 feet above touchdown stupidly lost patience and planted it..So to add to the above remember patience our birds will not land when they want to fly. The pilot with me stated he looked at the windsock as on short final and it abruptly turned about 180* in the opposite direction..Respect  and patience  pays off

[kerry]

No flaps, I keep your speed up. 100mph.  Winds can shift and I don't want to stall.  I Bank into the wind staying parallel with the runway.  I like to keep my mains straight with the runway.  That means I'll land on one main wheel.  This is how I was taught to land tail wheel.  Tricycle gear is more forgiving but I believe my stick and rudder skills serve me well in a mooney.

[orionflt]

Dan,

Before that experience i had a more harrowing one in a maule, I was flying right seat for a friend who was trying to get use to her new plane and to check out the new VG's she just had installed. it was a nice day but the winds were picking up, we did some slow flight, power on and power off stalls. I was very impressed with the new characteristics, it was very hard to stall the plane. once we got back home she shot 2 landings that were good but she was doing a lot of correcting especially near short final and she wasn't happy with them. she asked me for some advice and since i didn't know what the winds were doing i said let me shoot an approach to see what she was dealing with. I already had a lot of time in her right seat and plenty of landings so i was comfortable with the plane, as we came around the pattern everything was normal, just some minor corrections for the wind (maybe 15-20 mph 30 degree crosswind component). we turned final and i had to deal with a little extra chop (not unusual due to the tree line prior to the runway) as we got over the threshold the plane suddenly lurched, the right wing violently dropped. I immediately applied power, corrected and got the airplane upright but now i was no longer lined up with the runway and very very low and slow, normally I would have just used the taxiway as an alternate but it this case there was none because it was torn up and being redone. the area where the taxiway had been was now covered with men and machines and was not an option for landing. making minor corrections with the rudder I got myself pointed back towards the runway, got my speed back up and went around, I don't mind telling you i was very relieved when i was able to get a positive rate of climb. as i was coming around the pattern for a second time I tried to figure out what had happened, my first thought was a stall, but my right wing dropped not the left and i wasn't cross controlled at all. the next time over the numbers i carried a little extra speed, this time when we hit the burble i was ready for it and landed uneventfully. what I did figure out was that while they were doing the work on the taxiway they had built a huge mound of dirt at the end of the runway, the winds were coming off the top of the mound (about 50 ft higher then the runway) and swirling rolling over the end of the runway. (they moved the mound soon afterwards). when we talked to one of the instructors at the field who had been watching from the ground he said we had rolled over 90 deg and he was sure we were going in. the owner of the plane and my daughter who was in the back seat never realized just how close we came, they realized something happened and knew we went over but I got us back upright quick enough that they were not concerned.  

[bumper]

My '87 201 runs out of rudder in the 35 knots + gusting region, so crabbing until just before mains touch down is the drill. I'll test the waters by slipping briefly a time or two on final. If it will slip straight and I have altitude, then I may leave it in a slip - depends.

 

What the Mooney has over some other aircraft is very good stability in strong winds on the ground. Stuff that would keep my Husky in the hangar is no sweat in the Mooney.

 

I have a self launch glider (ASH26E) as well. There the limitation is on take off, with about 15 knots X-wind the sensible limit. This is due to the high thrust line unloading the tailwheel before the rudder is effective. Too easy to head for the sagebrush to chase the bunnies. Landing, even with the 59 foot wingspan is no big deal even with strong crosswinds. This may seem counter intuitive at first, but modern gliders have little side area so the slender fuselage slips well at low bank angles. But, if you do touch a wing, really bad things can happen.

 

bumper

[Mooneymite]

Crosswind: 90° to Approach: 15 G 20.

 

What do you do?

 

 

Hang on tight.  Close my eyes.  Dial 911.

[AndyFromCB]

Fly it like you'd fly a jet. Full flaps, crab until flare.

[Mooneymite]

Fly it like you'd fly a jet. Full flaps, crab until flare.

Really?

[Z W]

Crab and kick.  Half flaps.  Carry about 5 extra knots for the half flaps and gust factor.  Maybe 10 extra knots if it's really bumpy, runway length permitting.

 

I kick the nose over about 20 ft AGL.  Hold the center line between the mains with the ailerons, point the nose down it with the rudder.

[midlifeflyer]

-Crab to "de-crab" at Threshold?

-Slip on short final for ease of alignment?

 

"Ease of alignment" is a personal assumption by you that will not be shared by others.

 

So-called "crab & kick" and "slip down final" are not different techniques. They are the ends of a continuum in which diffferent pilots will have different levels of comfort that may even change with the specific situation.

-Do you use full flaps (heard slower airspeed, the less effect the gust will have on wing)?

-Half Flaps?

-Increase of airspeed?

 

The amount of flaps I use does not typically depend on whether there is a crosswind. Especially in a Mooney. I ony increase airspeed to deal with gust factors, not steady-state crosswinds.

 

After landing: aileron into wind (How much? full? half? Wait for wing to lift and then adjust?)

 

I always think it's fun to wait until the wind starts to blow you over before correcting for it — NOT!    I much prefer to stay ahead of the airplane by transitioning during the rollout from xwind flight position to xwind taxi position.

 

Rudder authority? How hard do "feel" comfortable doing as the nose wheel turns into the cross wind and could start a ground loop?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this one. I use the amount of rudder that I need to maintain runway alignment, no more no less. How much do you turn the steering wheel of your car when you are hit by a strong side gust? Enough to keep in lane or enough to crash into the barrier?

 

Do you dump the flaps as soon as you stabilize with all three wheels on the ground?

 

Don't see any reason to.

 

FWIW, here's my FAQ on crosswind landings: http://midlifeflight.com/wordpress/flying-faq/faq-takeoffs-and-landings

 

Don't spend too much time at the site; I'm transitioning to WordPress and things are a jumble. The FAQ file seems to be working though.

 

[Dave Marten]

I did perform several other landings that day at my home field where the cross wind component was only about 35G45 with no windsheer and the plane handle great. it is nice to know that we have a platform that is so durable in most conditions I would never have gone out in a 172 or a small piper that day, but never though twice about taking the mooney up.

 

Brian

Brian,

 

Are you saying you flew multiple landings in a 35G45 KT direct crosswind at your home field? I'm not buying it. That's exceeding the crosswind limits of nearly every heavy jet I've flown (bombers, 737, KC-135, C-17, etc). Infact I'm hard pressed to think of an aircraft certified for a 45kt direct cross (even on or exceeding the ragged edge of a heavy B-52's crabbing ability). 

 

Here are my personal Mooney (or any other light GA) limits:

Max sustained wind 30kts with max gusts to 35kts with a max crosswind direct component of steady 15kts gusting to 20kts.

 

We all operate our Mooneys for recreational purposes. I stop having fun after reaching the above wind limits.

[jlunseth]

While I was preparing for my commercial I noticed that the Max Demonstrated Crosswind for the 231 is only 12 kts.  That is not a limit of course, but it is I think a message that the 231 does not have the most rudder authority in the fleet.  My configuration depends on how strong the crosswind component is, and I have to add that I don't normally stop to calculate that, I just make estimates and a judgement.  In mild wind conditions with not much of a crosswind component my speed over the fence will be 75 and full flaps.  A stiff crosswind or gusty conditions even if the crosswind is not heavy will find me at 85 kts. and one notch.  Remember that with a sizable headwind component ground speed will be reduced, so 85 in the air is about the same as 75 and little or no wind, in terms of GS.  Really strong winds call for no flaps and airspeed as high as 90, flying it right down to the runway.  This latter config is something I practice about one or twice a year, because it is not simple.  I usually want at least a 15 kt crosswind component and a wide runway.  The biggest problem with my aircraft in strong crosswinds is not getting it on the runway, that I can work out, it is getting pushed across the runway by the crosswind once all the wheels are on the ground.  So on the very strong wind days I aim for upwind of the center line.

 

I use the "crab and cross control," what most people call a crab and kick except we can't do that real crab and kick in light aircraft, that is for the big iron.  I instinctively change it depending on winds.  I will go to the cross controlled configuration (down wind wing down, rudder to align with the runway) a little early in light winds.  I will save until right above the runway in heavier winds.  Often, ground friction will reduce the wind right at the runway, so what might have been full rudder at 50 feet, can be a lot less than that lower down.  Really problematic days are when there is no difference, the wind is scouring the runway.  You have to carry extra speed on those days to get the necessary control authority.

[Mooneymite]

Here's some of that "jet technique".

 

[orionflt]

Brian,

 

Are you saying you flew multiple landings in a 35G45 KT direct crosswind at your home field? I'm not buying it. That's exceeding the crosswind limits of nearly every heavy jet I've flown (bombers, 737, KC-135, C-17, etc). Infact I'm hard pressed to think of an aircraft certified for a 45kt direct cross (even on or exceeding the ragged edge of a heavy B-52's crabbing ability). 

 

Here are my personal Mooney (or any other light GA) limits:

Max sustained wind 30kts with max gusts to 35kts with a max crosswind direct component of steady 15kts gusting to 20kts.

 

We all operate our Mooneys for recreational purposes. I stop having fun after reaching the above wind limits.

Dave, 

MPH(right around your personal minimums), and yes i did 2 that day, I can not tell you what the exact crosswind component was but the winds were favoring a 30 deg runway component but when they shifted towards a cross wind you felt it, I was going to call the flight after the first landing, but we had only been out for a little bit and even though the winds were shifting around and gusting I was able to make a safe landing so we decided to go back out, the second landing was at a neighboring airport to drop my pax off and honestly if we hadn't ended up on the ground I was headed home and would have driven him back, by the third landing back at my home field was easier then the first, but i was ready to be done flying. as for personal minimums, I am usually more conservative then that, but i did have alternatives that had a direct head wind component and i wanted to see how the plane would handle. I have over 5000 hours in the P-3 orion and that has max demonstrated cross wind component of 35 kts, but we have landed them in higher winds then that when necessary. It's not something to do routinely but it's nice to know the aircraft's capabilities if you need it.

 

Brian    

[M20S Driver]

I use the crab method in heavy winds down to the last 20 feet.  It is a lot easier to maintain the glide path and correct for wind shifts as well as up and down drafts.  I use minimum flaps and 5-10 knots faster (85 to 90 kts in M20S) and transition from crab to lowering the wing into the wind and lining up with the runway. I keep some power on (runway permitting) for  more rudder authority.  Power is off when the main wheels are on the runway followed by flaps (if any).

 

Masoud

[gjkirsch]

1/2 flaps, crab until ground affect, +1/2 the cross wind speed added to final approach speed.  At least 3500 ft runway in strong cross winds.

[M016576]

Brian,

Are you saying you flew multiple landings in a 35G45 KT direct crosswind at your home field? I'm not buying it. That's exceeding the crosswind limits of nearly every heavy jet I've flown (bombers, 737, KC-135, C-17, etc). Infact I'm hard pressed to think of an aircraft certified for a 45kt direct cross (even on or exceeding the ragged edge of a heavy B-52's crabbing ability).

Here are my personal Mooney (or any other light GA) limits:

Max sustained wind 30kts with max gusts to 35kts with a max crosswind direct component of steady 15kts gusting to 20kts.

We all operate our Mooneys for recreational purposes. I stop having fun after reaching the above wind limits.

I'm with you Dave- a 35G45 kts direct xwind... Very unlikely. That's above both the F-18 and F-15 crosswind limits, and over 3 times the max demonstrated xwind capability of the J airplane.

I landed my J at KIYK a few years back with a 22kt direct xwind component, and ran out of rudder. Unless my J was grossly miss-rigged, I don't think you could maintain runway alignment under a direct 35kt xwind safely and land out of it consistently (notice I say safe and consistent... You can do anything once!)

[Marauder]

The most x-wind I have ever landed my F in was a 25K direct cross wind. I cheated a little by angling on the runway a few degrees.

[AlanA]

Those crosswinds and gusts are beyond my personal limitations, but for crosswinds less than 20 kts I just give it whatever rudder keeps it straight.

[piperpainter]

Land

[John Pleisse]

You are just trying to cause trouble.

 

I think we have argued about this in the past.

 

I agree. 14 is the demonstrated. I run out of rudder right at 20 or a  hair over (J model). Against the advice of many, I crab and kick, planting the upwind wing and gear authoritatively. It is also not past me to begin this process way off center on the upwind side of the runway. I had one landing in Charleston, SC some years back where I ended up needing all of the 150 foot width.

 

Why crab and kick? Both wings are into the relative wind at all times and the a/c is never cross controlled until flaring height.

 

Flaps half (you'll need the to go around).

[John Pleisse]

Land

 

I've seen a bunch of yours on Youtube. You really do.

[AndyFromCB]

I never understood any other technique but crab and kick. What is the point of sitting cross controlled and slow on a long final? Crab until right before flare, then kick. Said it before, will say it again. As to people claiming landing direct 45knot cross wind, well, you're much better pilot than me. This woos here went around 3 times before landing in 35knot gusts once.