Buyer Beware!!! 1966 M20E $35000

[fantom]

I think Jim's 201 has less corrosion on it now than when it left the factory. Probably shinier too

 

True....even as it's not used nearly enough

[chrisk]

A tie down is $75 a month, a spot in the group hangar is $140.  I've decided to go with Orionflt's advice and not paint it for now.  I'm leaning towards a spot in the group hangar because I'm worried a tie down would make the corrosion worse.  So it seems like if I did get a paint job, I need a hangar.  If I don't get a paint job I should still have a hangar.  

 

If I cheap out and went with the tie down instead, would I save enough money to cover the additional wear it would cause on the plane?  If so, then it seems that tie dows are the way to go.  Otherwise the answer would seem to be get a hangar no matter what and tie downs are useless for anything other than short term parking.  What's the verdict?

Where I am, a group hanger is $300+ per month.  A tie down is around $40 per month.   The difference is around $3000 per year.   --And if it was just paint, maybe the right thing financially would be a tiedown.   You could get a paint job every 5 years.  But being outside is hard on more than just the paint.  Everything just deteriorates faster.  You have to factor in avionics, instruments, interior, corrosion, etc. 

[carusoam]

Young man,

Many people start the journey in a Mooney they can afford, keep it outside with a cover on it and move up when finances, responsibilities and time allow.... This could take a decade.

If you skip the wife and family, and day care and college that go with them, go right to the next level. Paint it nicely and keep it indoors.

Only you will know what's right for you!

Doing what's right for the plane is expensive.

Ask the people in your neighborhood how they handle this situation. Outdoors in NJ isn't as bad a outdoors in MN, TX or FLA...

Did I say that I applaud your efforts? Because I do. Been there, done that too!

[ArtVandelay]

Don't forget the cascade effect:

First, you paint it, but now the interior looks really bad, so new interior (seats, etc), but now the instrument panel looks really bad, and what's the point of having a new interior/exterior with an engine with 1800 hrs on it....

[fantom]

.....Or were  you being sarcastic..

 

Hey, that's MY job!

[Matt Michael]

At 2AM when thunderstorms are rolling in you will wish you had paid for a hangar. Even in NJ high winds and hail are possible 24/7 from April through September.

[sufferingcadet]

It's going to be in Watertown, NY.  I'm going to go with the group hangar for now.  Guess step 1 will be to do some touch and gos with my CFI when it gets here next week. 

[jetdriven]

Hail on ailerons and elevators is easy to get and really expensive to repair. Check the prices of those items.

[carusoam]

How much snow is on the ground there?

Is lake Erie frozen over?

Useless things in aviation...

(1) runway behind...

(2) fuel left at FBO...

(3) outdoor storage in Buffalo in winter, especially when the Geat Lakes are not frozen over.

Think positively,

-Old Guy-

[Marauder]

How much snow is on the ground there?

Is lake Erie frozen over?

Useless things in aviation...

(1) runway behind...

(2) fuel left at FBO...

(3) outdoor storage in Buffalo in winter, especially when the Geat Lakes are not frozen over.

Think positively,

-Old Guy-

 

We got to get you a map "Old Guy". Lake Erie is on the other side of the state from Watertown. Lake Ontario does not freeze (too deep) and Lake Erie probably is frozen and will be to mid summer It is not very feet deep in most places (low 60' range as an average).

 

[orionflt]

Don't forget the cascade effect:

First, you paint it, but now the interior looks really bad, so new interior (seats, etc), but now the instrument panel looks really bad, and what's the point of having a new interior/exterior with an engine with 1800 hrs on it....

Yea, That one just caught me, we will see how long until i have it shipped off to get painted, just about everything else is done.

[carusoam]

I should have ended with the first question. How much snow???

Keeping score....

(1) Time frame is 1 year.

(2) Question 1, paint or don't paint?

(3) Question 2, indoor or outdoor storage?

(4) Question 3, location?

(5) Question 4, how much memory is left in the old guy's head?

(6) Question 5, how much use do you intend to get out of the plane. Once a day, once a week or once a month?

(7) Question 6, what's your mission? Training, developing skills, impressing other people, or just blowing of steam after a long day of work?

I recommend that the cadet determine this on his own....

But, based on the situation so far... (my thoughts)

(1) Operating from an outdoor tie down in winter takes a LOT of effort. If you have more money than effort. Keep it indoors. At least till after spring hale.

If the flight schools in Watertown operate from tie downs, and you are short on cash, operate like the local professionals. Outdoors!

If you intend to use it a couple times a week, you will develop a method of shoveling, deicing and preheating that works.

(2) time to paint... A month of down time, possibly? Earle Scheib doesn't paint planes....

(3) To an old guy, a year is a very short period of time. There is no time to shovel or wait for paint to dry.

(4) don't sign a lease... until you know what you want.

(5) time to sell a plane.... A month or two to a year or two depending how much you need to sell it. It is not usually a liquid market.

When I was young, I had no cash... New paint and indoor storage couldn't work.

Then I had family, I had little cash... New paint and indoor storage couldn't work.

Everyone is different.

If you have the cash, buy a fast plane and keep it indoors, in a warm area, for a long period of time....

If you have little cash, join a club, or rent.

Best regards,

-old guy-

[jetdriven]

It's going to be in Watertown, NY.  I'm going to go with the group hangar for now.  Guess step 1 will be to do some touch and gos with my CFI when it gets here next week. 

I don't do touch and goes in complex airplanes, Mooneys in particular. There are several threads on Mooneyspace about doing these which resulted in the gear coming up and a totalled aircraft, or at least sixty grand or so.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9761-another-touch-and-go-incident/

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8548-expensive-brain-fart/

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/4128-consequences-of-retracting-flaps-on-roll-out/

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/3174-m20c-gear-collapse-need-parts-help/#entry37175

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/1987-accident-at-chino/

 

et.al.

[BigTex]

Don't forget the cascade effect:

First, you paint it, but now the interior looks really bad, so new interior (seats, etc), but now the instrument panel looks really bad, and what's the point of having a new interior/exterior with an engine with 1800 hrs on it....

No wiser words were ever spoken!

[sufferingcadet]

Alright, those threads were a little scary.  I guess I have to spend between 10 and 25 hours with my CFI before I can be insured in a complex aircraft.  Does that mean I have to fly around with no insurance for my first 1-2 dozen hours when I'm most likely to break something?  Is this how everyone does it?

[jetdriven]

You talk to your insurance agent, and they usually specify X number of hours of dual recieved, and sometimes, X number of hours solo flight before carrying passengers. Typically 10-20 hours of one or both.

[carusoam]

Young buck,

It costs extra to be young and inexperienced.

Nobody (that has anything or expects to have something) goes without insurance.

Aim high! Do it right. Take no short cuts...

New guy at my airport ran his C150 into another plane on his first day of ownership. He was 28 and well insured.

His smartest decision was to insure against his inexperience. He hired a mechanic to help him out. Should have hired a flight instructor...

Flying a fast plane takes a fair amount of responsibility.

You'll really like it, after the first few hours go by....

As Byron pointed out, get real quotes...

(1) how much for the plane, PPI and other acquisition costs....

(2) how much for the tie down...

(3) how much for the annual...

(4) how much for the insurance...

(5) how much for a year's fuel and at least an oil change...

Are you still with me???

The plane may have been built last century, but the responsibility is the same as today's $.5MM speedster.

Best regards,

-old buck-

[KSMooniac]

Yes, go find an insurance broker and you can get covered before you ever get in it.  Depending on your experience, you'll likely have to get somewhere between 0 and 10 or 20 hours with an instructor, and possibly some additional solo time before you're covered to take pax.  Find a good instructor that is very familiar with Mooneys, and you'll come out ahead vs. some new CFI at the FBO.  

[ArtVandelay]

So we should stop maintaining our planes when approaching TBO?  Or were  you being sarcastic and I missed it?  

A little sarcasm with a hint of truth...wasn't there someone who posted they were going to wax their firewall?

[Chris Strube]

I was looking at this plane, and actually made an offer before finding this thread.  After 2000 plus hours in my 66E, and 7 Caravans to Oshkosh, and one of the first members of the Mooney list (when it was on Compuserve), I have again found our group to be the best resource for anything Mooney.  Now, if someone will point me at a decent 65 - 67 M20E, I'll be eternally grateful.

[sufferingcadet]

Chris,

 

I'm actually the owner of this plane.  If you have specific concerns you're welcome to have a prebuy inspection conducted.  The original poster didn't want to buy the plane because the dealer would not let him have a prepurchase at Don Maxwell's shop in TX.  I will gladly fly it there or any other shop you want to take a look at it for travel costs.  I also make the same offer to any other potential buyer.

[rbridges]

that was quick.  why are you selling it so soon?

[sufferingcadet]

I just got it to get my instrument rating, build time, and have complex time for commercial.  I'm building an RV-10 and I'm going to use that as the family plane.  Have a baby coming next month and I can already tell the mooney door is going to be terrible for getting a car seat in and out of.  The wife also equates old with unsafe for some reason, so she doesn't like the 66' Mooney but I have no doubt she'll be impressed with the RV-10 when it's done.  We all know that the age of the plane doesn't really matter but try telling HER that.

 

Winter in upstate NY is terrible for flying and the local flight school actually shuts down for 6 months.  I would like to sell the plane before winter to not pay insurance and hangar fee and not fly for the long winter.  I currently fly it on average twice a week.  It's had an annual.  Things I've done to the plane include the tank patch, replacing the original generator with an alternator, and an altimeter replaced when it failed the IFR check.  

 

I would also be willing to trade for a 172, cheaper insurance, easier for car seat in and out.  However, it wouldn't solve the paying for a hanger/insurance over the winter.  I don't really know what I want to do but I'm hoping it'll all work itself out.  Keep the plane, sell the plane, trade the plane, who knows.  Life is hard...

[carusoam]

See if I understand correctly...

1) bought a plane to get your IR...

2) want to sell because a child seat doesn't fit through the door...

3) swapping out a factory built plane for a build it yourself project...

4) winter closes a business for 50% of the year...

5) a Cessna will solve all your problems...

Buddy, friend, pal...

Is this really your situation?

Stop, take a breath, think hard about your next step...

Consider putting a child's seat back there while nobody watches... Let it stay there...

Remember... The child has to come and go with you, not the seat.

Best regards,

-a-

[sufferingcadet]

I don't really claim to know what I'm doing.  I'm working on the tailkit.  So far building has been fun and not too frustrating.  I'm going to do the quickbuild wings and fuselage, but I still have no idea how long the entire thing is going to take.  I think the RV is going to have a lot over the mooney.  It's going to have shiny new avionics, be more comfortable, faster, and fixed gear instead of retract is a plus for me too.  The potential for a gear up landing is ok when it's just me, I would never live it down if I was stupid enough to do it one day with my family in it, and all it takes is just once.  Being able to do my own maintenance also appeals to me.  How awesome would it have been to do my own annual and put in my own alternator this year?  Coulda saved myself almost $3000...

 

I may be overly worried about nothing.  If the plane doesn't sell then I'm willing to keep it another year and see how it goes.  I'm also worried about flying hindering building or building hindering flying.  Trying to maintain both at the same time may also be too greedy.  A Cessna next spring would solve some of my problems, it's sooooo slow though....  I thought about a 182 instead of a 172, but I also want to get my CFI and flight instruct part time to spread the joy of aviation.  A 172 would be better for this mission vs a 182. 

 

And yes, the flight school here shuts down for the winter.  The airport is still open, but the instructor goes to Florida because winters here suck.  I'll take all the advice I can get from anyone who has input, from my point of view there doesn't seem to be a cut and dried solution.  So you see, I'm not kidding when I say I have no idea what I'm doing.