Check your landing gear closely!!!

[sleepingsquirrel]

http://www.mooney.com/images/pdfs/si-pdf/m20-117.pdf

 

Insidious.

[nels]

It sounds as if no gear damage occurred so you should be able to inspect It thoroughly and determine what the cause was. Once the problem has been definitley determined it should put your mind at ease for the next time. On another note, I think the insurance company would sell you the plane after totaling it. You might come out way ahead of the game.

[Mooneymite]

It sounds as if no gear damage occurred so you should be able to inspect It thoroughly and determine what the cause was. Once the problem has been definitley determined it should put your mind at ease for the next time. On another note, I think the insurance company would sell you the plane after totaling it. You might come out way ahead of the game.

 

It would be helpful to all of us if you could post the "post mortem" details;  especially if there was a common factor between the two incidents.  We will all be cognizant of this at our next annual, or before!

[mike_elliott]

It would be helpful to all of us if you could post the "post mortem" details;  especially if there was a common factor between the two incidents.  We will all be cognizant of this at our next annual, or before!

 

One thing that is often overlooked is the gear lock block. These things can be extensively worn and not readily visible. After 40 years, the aluminum is egged out pretty good, and the J bar can slip out of them, The good news is they are cheap (relatively) and readily available from LASAR and not hard to change. If you have an J bar mooney and you have not had this changed yet, consider doing it and putting another 40 years of life into this area before it causes a gear collapse.

[Hector]

I'm a little paranoid now. My C has been flawless since I purchased her over a year ago. My local A&P does not see a lot of Mooneys in his shop, but he does have the tools to do the pre-load check (he actually showed them to me). During my first annual I did not get to see him do the gear swings and pre-load checks. I'm going by faith and his word that it was done correctly. For peace of mind now I'm thinking I should check it myself (rent or buy the tools), AND maybe its not a bad idea to let a real Mooney pro do the annual on my bird, if not every annual maybe at least every 2 or 3 years. It's a touchy subject though, my local A&P calls me to schedule maintenance when is due. He is not likely to take it well if I go somewhere else. He is a very good wrench, and I have confidence in him, but the minions that work for him scare me. I would hope he understands as I would continue to use him for unscheduled maintenance and some annuals possibly, but not all.

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[mooniac15u]

I'm a little paranoid now. My C has been flawless since I purchased her over a year ago. My local A&P does not see a lot of Mooneys in his shop, but he does have the tools to do the pre-load check (he actually showed them to me). During my first annual I did not get to see him do the gear swings and pre-load checks. I'm going by faith and his word that it was done correctly. For peace of mind now I'm thinking I should check it myself (rent or buy the tools), AND maybe its not a bad idea to let a real Mooney pro do the annual on my bird, if not every annual maybe at least every 2 or 3 years. It's a touchy subject though, my local A&P calls me to schedule maintenance when is due. He is not likely to take it well if I go somewhere else. He is a very good wrench, and I have confidence in him, but the minions that work for him scare me. I would hope he understands as I would continue to use him for unscheduled maintenance and some annuals possibly, but not all.

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You could always stop by an MSC between annuals and have them take a look at your gear.  A quick gear inspection and preload check shouldn't cost much.

[mike_elliott]

I'm a little paranoid now. My C has been flawless since I purchased her over a year ago. My local A&P does not see a lot of Mooneys in his shop, but he does have the tools to do the pre-load check (he actually showed them to me). During my first annual I did not get to see him do the gear swings and pre-load checks. I'm going by faith and his word that it was done correctly. For peace of mind now I'm thinking I should check it myself (rent or buy the tools), AND maybe its not a bad idea to let a real Mooney pro do the annual on my bird, if not every annual maybe at least every 2 or 3 years. It's a touchy subject though, my local A&P calls me to schedule maintenance when is due. He is not likely to take it well if I go somewhere else. He is a very good wrench, and I have confidence in him, but the minions that work for him scare me. I would hope he understands as I would continue to use him for unscheduled maintenance and some annuals possibly, but not all.

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you might consider Phil Jiminez at KAVO or Bob Meier in the Tampa area to check your gear system out. Most IA's don't get bent out of shape if someone else has a look see and does work on your plane, it actually helps to have new eyes on it every now and then and they know it. Arnold Holmes in Leesburg is also very good.

[Hector]

you might consider Phil Jiminez at KAVO or Bob Meier in the Tampa area to check your gear system out. Most IA's don't get bent out of shape if someone else has a look see and does work on your plane, it actually helps to have new eyes on it every now and then and they know it. Arnold Holmes in Leesburg is also very good.

Thanks Mike. I've heard a lot about Phil and was actually thinking of him as I wrote the post. Have not heard of Arnold, but the Florida Mooney lunch group is holding the 10th anniversary reunion in Leesburg

In January and I was planning to attend. Maybe I'll call Arnold and see if he can get me in. Do you have contact info for him? Both Phil and Arnold would be very convenient for me (short flight from KCRG)

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[mike_elliott]

352-617-2029 is Arnolds phone. He will be at the Jan lunch also. Tell him I sent you!

[Sabremech]

If you're looking for a set of preload tools, I have plenty of new sets in stock. You can contact me at sabremech at gmail.com for details.

David

[usafhaynes1]

I apologize for not responding...I've been traveling around in my buddy's Piper 180.  It's slower but a very stable IFR platform with an excellent autopilot than can fly autopilot an ILS w/ glideslope.  Yes, I say this since my next plane will be a Piper 180.  Why?  I can no longer trust Mooney.  She's a fast plane but I do not trust the landing gear. 

 

The local mechanic moved my plane last Friday.  When he lifted the front of the plane, he took a look at the landing gear.  His words were "shattered".  The nose gear was broken in multiple places.  This is different from my last mooney where the control rods were broken in multiple places causing the nose and left main to collapse.  This time, the nose trusses were shattered in multiple spots causing the nose gear to fail while the mains stayed down and locked.

 

My opinion.  Anyone flying these beautiful aircraft should have the landing gear replaced.  Not checked, not inspected, simply replaced.  I personally feel that after having two aircraft landing gear collapse, it is a simple answer as to the cause...metal fatigue.  I think I'm the unfortunate owner of two separate planes experiencing metal fatigue so much that it is breaking.

 

Do I have hard landings?  No.

Do I check the Johnson bar on initial, final and after touchdown?  Yes...especially after first airplane had nose gear collapse.

 

I hope people gain an appreciation for how dangerous each situation could've been and how fortunate I feel that both collapses happened on a taxi for takeoff, not on landing or actual takeoff.

 

I appreciate this community for the insight to help me be a better pilot, but I'm now going to go find a piper 180 and then I'll save up for a Cessna 182 or a Cherokee Six.

 

thanks.

[jetdriven]

Haynes that's the most well written rationalization I have ever read. However, your opinion is based on complete voodoo, and that takes you places that facts can't. The blame lies with e last two people who inspected your landing gear. Not the design, and not you.  I'm sure those same people are telling you that metal fatigue on a 4130 truss caused it to "shatter" ( rather than the gear collapsed because it didn't conform to type design) at the same ones who did the annual.

It's like the drunk looking for his car keys under the streetlight because that's where the light is.

[larryb]

Haynes:

What year and TT were your Mooneys?

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[scottfromiowa]

Enjoy your piper. A good airplane. Bye bye.

[Hector]

I apologize for not responding...I've been traveling around in my buddy's Piper 180. It's slower but a very stable IFR platform with an excellent autopilot than can fly autopilot an ILS w/ glideslope. Yes, I say this since my next plane will be a Piper 180. Why? I can no longer trust Mooney. She's a fast plane but I do not trust the landing gear.

The local mechanic moved my plane last Friday. When he lifted the front of the plane, he took a look at the landing gear. His words were "shattered". The nose gear was broken in multiple places. This is different from my last mooney where the control rods were broken in multiple places causing the nose and left main to collapse. This time, the nose trusses were shattered in multiple spots causing the nose gear to fail while the mains stayed down and locked.

My opinion. Anyone flying these beautiful aircraft should have the landing gear replaced. Not checked, not inspected, simply replaced. I personally feel that after having two aircraft landing gear collapse, it is a simple answer as to the cause...metal fatigue. I think I'm the unfortunate owner of two separate planes experiencing metal fatigue so much that it is breaking.

Do I have hard landings? No.

Do I check the Johnson bar on initial, final and after touchdown? Yes...especially after first airplane had nose gear collapse.

I hope people gain an appreciation for how dangerous each situation could've been and how fortunate I feel that both collapses happened on a taxi for takeoff, not on landing or actual takeoff.

I appreciate this community for the insight to help me be a better pilot, but I'm now going to go find a piper 180 and then I'll save up for a Cessna 182 or a Cherokee Six.

thanks.

As a stress/strength engineer working in the aircraft industry for the last 25 years I find it difficult to believe this is a true fatigue issue unless you happen to be flying the two Mooney's with the highest number of landings/cycles in the fleet (fleet leader). If the Mooney landing gear exposed to normal loading conditions had true fatigue hot spots leading to fatigue cracking and subsequent overload failure, there should be landing gear failing or being found with cracks every day. The fact that you had two cases of cracked landing gear is extremely suspicious to say the least. You are either loading that gear outside of design parameters, or the gear has been rigged in such a way to cause abnormal loading. You are saying they failed due to fatigue cracking. Is this based on fractographical analysis of the fracture surfaces by a qualified material's laboratory or your mech's opinion? How well maintained was that landing gear? Any evidence of corrosion? Sorry....not convinced at all there is a wider problem here, but there is definitely something wrong with your airplanes and/or maintenance or usage.

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[BigTex]

Makes me wonder if the noise gear had the trusses damaged due to improper towing?

[nels]

Makes me wonder if the noise gear had the trusses damaged due to improper towing?

That's what I was thinking.

[N601RX]

I think it is a lot more likely that while the mechanic may have quickly checked the preload, he didn't do the entire procedure. The 1st step is to disconnect the linkage to each wheel and lub it while moving that wheel up and down looking for binding or worn bushings. Once you are sure there is no binding or worn bushings then you reconnect all the wheels and set the preload. If there is any binding or if the gear legs are not moving freely the preload check or adjustment will not be correct even though it may apear to be.

[usafhaynes1]

My previous reply was 100% conjecture and opinion.  No, I do not know what exactly caused the collapse.  Yes, I find it extremely suspicious that both times the collapse happending on taxi for takeoff.  What I do know is that the safety of both myself and family is more important and I can no longer trust this airframe.  In my mind, I'm blessed that the collapse did not happen on landing.

 

Again, I do appreciate all opinions and advice and hope all can continue flying safely. 

[TWinter]

I don't think it is a brand/design problem. Without taking time to research and see how many of the 11000+ Mooneys produced have actually had a broken nose gear accident. Next consider there are only about 7000 still flying .Then break it down further to year model, TT etc that had a gear collapse. The odds of design flaw are now getting slimmer as we go. Even on our forum we seldom hear times of nose gear breakage. Then go a step further..where did the planes spend most of their lives? Lots of variables, but narrowed considerably showing what appears to be a safe and robust design.

 

Now even further the odds by saying different mechanics have done pre-buy and done the annuals and never observed anything odd or unusual?..,With all that exhausted we have to find the common denominator? I have no idea what the cause was, but knowing Mooney is rated as one of the safest (and fastest ) aircraft I don't think throwing an umbrella over "Mooney" as a potential nose gear accident waiting to happen is accurate.

 

I do understand being gunshy and wanting something different after two very costly incidents. Best of luck in the 180. 

 

Just my .02

[mike_elliott]

Hi usafhaynes1, I believe you are using flawed logic to draw this conclusion. But since you have drawn a conclusion, why not back test your conclusion by checking the NTSB for incidents and causes for gear collapses in Mooneys and while your at it, check the NTSB for Cessna retracts and Arrows and Lances. You can either support your conclusion or debunk it yourself. I realize you like your IA/A$P, and applaud that, but the operative here is "trust but verify" when it comes to anyone wrenching on your plane. Certainly a group of us suggesting the gear itself might not have been set up correctly should have some bearing on cause, not just what was seen afterwards, the effect. Too many times people try to fix effects with poor results, when the should be fixing causes. The FAA is guilty of that to a degree with some of their AD's, but in large part, they do try to ferret down to the cause. Since there is NOT an AD or an SB to start throwing new parts at the gear system on Mooneys with over xxx hours or years, One might conclude yours is a rather isolated, infrequent occurrence. After all, with only a couple of cases of a tail hinge shim being incorrectly installed on Mooneys, they issued and AD for ALL Mooneys to have this checked within 10 hours, but they are not contemplating anything because of Mooney landing gear fatigue failures at all.

I believe Kelly McMullen is list admin on -jav's http://lists.aviating.com/mailman/listinfo server for pipers if your interested in going the Hershey bar wing route.

[ArtVandelay]

I don't think it is a brand/design problem. Without taking time to research and see how many of the 11000+ Mooneys produced have actually had a broken nose gear accident. Next consider there are only about 7000 still flying .Then break it down further to year model, TT etc that had a gear collapse. The odds of design flaw are now getting slimmer as we go. Even on our forum we seldom hear times of nose gear breakage. Then go a step further..where did the planes spend most of their lives? Lots of variables, but narrowed considerably showing what appears to be a safe and robust design.

FWIW,

I did a NTSB query for landing gear collapse for Mooneys, 6 records, only 1 seems a structural failure when plane landing after taking 12G loads in extremely severe turbulence.

[N33GG]

If you are going to another platform, the Cherokee 180 is an excellent choice. Best engine paired up with that airframe providing optimum performance and balance. Hard to beat the economics of operating and owning a 180 as well. I would look for a '68 or later model. And just like Mooneys (or any other older aircraft) get a good inspection from someone that knows them inside and out, and beware of corrosion.

I wish you well, and sorry you had such bad luck with an otherwise excellent aircraft.

[BigTex]

I would be nice to have someone exam the gear to see what happened.  I went back and reviewed some of Mr. Haynes posts and in one of them he talked about making an extremely hard landing where he dropped it on from 6'.  Makes me wonder if this might of been a contributing factor.

[N601RX]

Original posters previous post.

 

I'd like to introduce myself as a proud new owner of a 1963 Mooney M20C that I recently purchased from a great seller in TX.
 

I flew to TX, did the pre-inspection of the plane and all log books, took a test flight and had the owner do three landings to allow me to get a feel for the plane, then I jumped in the driver seat and did two excellent landings, even greased the 2nd one!  I owe all the reading I've done on this site to prepare me for the Johnson Bar, Manual flaps (love both of them over electric now) and approach pattern speeds.  I rounded out on final at 80 mph and the Mooney just sat down on the runway nicely, no floating.

 

After the paperwork was complete, I jumped in and headed straight for MS to visit family and again, great landings.  Flights from MS to TN with a proud mother, from TN to MS with mother, sister and niece, then back to TN with sister and niece, then off to VA for its home airport.  All landings were great except for VA when the ATIS was down.  Luckily some g1000 Cessna's were in the pattern; unlucky, reported 18kt direct crosswinds.  My first landing I had to immediately reject due I had come in full flaps.  As I got back into the pattern, I remembered the reading material stating no flaps for high winds and on the 2nd attempt, I came in with no flaps, less power but did stall the airplane about 6' off the runway to make for a hard hit.  The plane did not bounce, just kept on rolling.  Lesson learned!!!
I'm sure this might spark controversy but I'll throw it out there anyway (dangle the hook!).  I finished my pilot's license in Dec 2012 and went straight into IFR training in Jan 2013.  Yup.  I got complex certified on 30 Mar 2013 and two weeks later, at 68 hours of flying time, I bought a Mooney and after 2 greased landings (yes, i was nervous as hell until that first touchdown) I was on my way across country, flying this amazing aircraft home.  I flew for a total of 14.3 hours over the weekend to arrive at KCPK with 83 hours under my belt, and absolute passion for the planes' capabilities and a better understanding of my piloting skills.  I landed at KCPK under 18kt direct cross winds and had to reject the first landing becuase I had put in full flaps.  I never hesitated to take off when I realized I was being pushed off the runway.  For the second landing, all the hours of reading about flying a mooney kicked in and I came in no flaps, though she did stall 6' off the runway and set down hard enough to rattle my cage (humility as a pilot is an important attribute in my mind).

 

I accredit my landings, flying and understanding of the mooney's capabilities to about 30 hours online, reading every aspect of managing the aircraft on pre-flight, climb, cruise, descent (500 fpm to keep from shock cooling aircraft) and landing (BCGUMPS for me!).  I also have a full flight simulator at home with 3 screens and complete complex flight controls where I spent no less than 10 hours practicing takeoff and landing at every airport I would hit on my cross country.