jetdriven Posted January 30, 2014 Report Posted January 30, 2014 I mentioned this earlier. Plus the strobe function as an anti-colision light during the daytime is laughable. Plus 300$ is more in line with PMA or certified airplane part prices. These ain't that. Quote
cliffy Posted January 30, 2014 Report Posted January 30, 2014 UPDATE UPDATE Just talked by phone with Chris from Navstrobelighting- He says- NO, they are not legal yet on certified aircraft. He has filed all the papers to make them compliant but no word back from the FAA yet NO they are NOT "Standard Parts" as described in the AC as there are no Standard Part Designs Approved for LED Lights YET. FAA say they are 2 to 3 years away from that. He says that he uses "standard parts" in his adds in a very "liberal" sense? It's up to who ever installs them to make sure they are acceptable. SO, for those who have them installed, you need to make sure they are acceptable to your local FAA FSDO office or else remove them and install the original bulbs. You don't want a violation if seen by our "friends". I hope this clears up any confusion. Quote
jetdriven Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 Then they are deliberately lying their asses off. And probably lying about the light output as well. Anything to make a sale. And they are trying to get around the legality of it by encouraging owners to install it on their aircraft as owner maintenance and bogus approval. Note on Approval: The bulbs in this kit are approved as a replacement bulb for nav lights only with the added strobe safety feature to be used at the pilot's discretion. They are not approved as a replacement for an anti-collision system. Meets FAA AC No: 20-74 requirement. These bulbs are standard parts and have been designed to meet the requirements of TSO C-30c. --------- It appears as though I can use these on a Cessna 172, and that it is a simple replacement of bulb & lens operation - a 1 cuppa coffee job. Is that correct? And, what kind of paperwork is required for approval? Thank you. Per the supplier: This Sextant product will work just fine on your 172. You simply operate your nav switch each time you want to change modes. No switches, wires, or boxes necessary...it is really plug and play. With each kit comes a certificate that the product meets FAA 20-74. A follow-up to the C172 question, YES it was really that easy to install. I took the extra time to clean the sockets of any corrosion with steel wool and spray contact cleaner prior to installation. I also used the supplied dielectric grease to waterproof the connection during installation, just about guaranteeing I'll never have to open the NAV light fixtures again. Total time for installation was barely more than 1-hour for all three lamps. The end result was WELL worth the money and the effort! Thank you for following up with this information. Do these satisfy the anti-collision beacon requirement for night VFR? Per the supplier: My strobe lights do not meet the requirements for anti-collision lights. They are only a replacement for the standard navigation or position lights, with the additional strobe feature for safety. Is there a right and a wrong way to install these NavStrobe lights? Per our tech: You just need to make sure you put the correct color lamp on the correct side wing tip. Green goes on the right (co-pilot side) and the red goes on the left (pilot side) wing tip. Replace the colored wing tip lenses with the clear ones in the kit. The tail uses the existing lens, just replace the old lamp with the new LED lamp in the kit. I have a combination strobe and halogen tail light, Whelen A500A. Will the white LED lamp in your kit fit into that receptacle? I want to retain the tail strobe and add your flashing tail lamp. Per the supplier: According to the Whelen website their A500A light is a direct replacement for the original GE-94 incandescent light. Since all of my tailfin lights also replace the GE-94, then I can assume will work as a replacement bulb. Are these kits universal? I fly a 1970 Mooney M20F. Will they work with my existing lights? The parts manual shows my lights as: Grimes- A1285-R-12, A1285-G-12, A2064-1777 Yes, they will replace most bulbs found in common strobe systems. For your particular system, these should work just fine as replacements. How do I know if these will worth on my airplane? I have a 1976 Cessna 150M. Thanks. Edgar. N63491. We recommend that you check the currently installed bulb on your aircraft. We have added some application info to the "Overview" tab on the web page. These NavStrobe bulbs will replace most common bulbs found in GA aircraft. Please check the applicable bulb numbers listed on this web page against the currently installed bulbs on your aircraft. You can find the bulb number for your aircraft by looking in your parts manual or physically pulling one off the plane. If you don't see a matching number to what we have referenced, you can check the dimensions for the BAY15S (wing tip) and BA15S (tail) base styles in the "Dimensional Drawing" tab. Then you can measure your current bulbs to see if they will fit. Like we noted on the web page, these are nearly universal replacement bulbs for GA aircraft. This Sextant 30W kit will replace about 99% of all GA position lights. These should be no problem in your Cessna 150. I have tried other LED bulbs for my Cherokee and found that they cause so much static my radios are unusable. Do your bulbs have circuitry to eliminate static? Per the manufacturer: I have designed my Sextant products to have a very low RFI emission. There is a small amount of RFI coming from my bulbs in the strobe mode. It is well below the normal threshold of a radio and use of the squelch will eliminate the noise. In tests, I need an antenna within 1 foot to cause any problems, so I would ask if the customer could make sure the antenna is not really close to the Nav lights. Usually the issue is a loose or dirty light socket. This is where cleaning the socket and the dielectric grease really helps. If the radio has auto squelch it will totally remove squelch when tuned to very distant stations and then you may pick up my lights. As you get closer (stronger signal), the squelch increases and the issue will go away. If you are tuned to a station with no signal, you will not hear my lights since the default squelch is usually about 10% of radio sensitivity. When these lights are in strobe mode, do the red & green nav lights still illuminate between strobe flashes? Per the supplier: No. There is no light output between light bursts. Do these carry any kind of warranty? If so, what are the terms? I think just about all my customers would buy these. Yes. The manufacturer offers a 90 day satisfaction guarantee. Will the bulbs in this kit replace a Grimes 1512 bulb? Per the supplier: Yes, my Sextant 30w kit (11-11987) contains bulbs that are a direct replacements for the Grimes 1512 bulb. Quote
philiplane Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 one more detail, from our Friendly Aviation Advisors: Who Needs A PMA? a. General Requirements. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 21.303(a) requires any person producing replacement or modification parts for sale for installation on a type-certificated product to get a PMA. A PMA is a combined design and production approval for replacement parts. Also we may use a PMA for the production of modification parts from supplemental type certificates (STC). The prior STC approves the design and installation of these modification parts in products. However, if any replacement part alters a product by introducing a major change, then 14 CFR § 21.113 requires an STC for the approval of these parts. See FAA Order 8110.4, Type Certification, for STC procedures. Quote
larryb Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 To me this is all sort of a non-issue. I have no problem with the standard existing incandescent nav-lights on my plane. They don't seem to burn out that frequently, they aren't that expensive, they don't draw lots of current. They meet the regs. I'm just leaving them alone. The landing light is another issue entirely. I have an led myself, and it's great. The standard incandescent landing lights do burn out often, they do draw tons of current. I can and do leave my led landing light on all the time. Quote
fantom Posted January 31, 2014 Report Posted January 31, 2014 one more detail, from our Friendly Aviation Advisors: Who Needs A PMA? Good news or bad, depending on your perspective.....the Feds Against Aviation have been alerted to this massive safety issue now. Sorta like asking, 'Does that homework assignment need to be turned in Monday morning?' Quote
philiplane Posted September 19, 2014 Report Posted September 19, 2014 I have heard talk around FXE, PMP, TMB, and HWO that inspectors are looking for these while wandering the airports performing ramp checks, now that people have asked them if they're legal. Quote
C-FRJI Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 I have the NavStrobe Sextant kit. Works great! Much brighter than original and no issues. Quote
cliffy Posted January 25, 2015 Report Posted January 25, 2015 C-FRJI Can you use non-approved parts in Canada on certified airplanes? We can't down here in the lower 48. They even say on their literature that the kit is not FAA approved. Just curious, did your Aircraft Technician put them on and sign off on the log books? Quote
AZOutlaw Posted January 28, 2015 Report Posted January 28, 2015 I installed these and love them. I thought I read where they weren't legal for nightime use in strobe mode. That makes sense as we are supposed to have the steady red/green/white lights at night. (I also still have the rotating belly light that sounds like a coffee grinder) What I do know is a Mooney is a low profile plane which makes it difficult for others to see me. When on flight following I always saw the other traffic that Center calls out before they saw me....if they ever saw me. Using the Navstrobes in the day, others can see me now. With all the uncontrolled airspace out west, and many pilots who simply won't talk on the radio, I feel much safer with the Navstrobes especially during the day. Quote
cliffy Posted January 28, 2015 Report Posted January 28, 2015 AZOutlaw- After reading this thread you still feel its OK AND legal to install these lights? You probably won't be sent to jail but there is no way that they can be construed as being legal to install when even the guy who makes them says they are not legal on certified airplanes. Frankly I'd really like to use them but considering their legal status I won't. Quote
AZOutlaw Posted January 28, 2015 Report Posted January 28, 2015 Roger that. I still have the original dim, power sucking, inferior bulbs on the shelf and I guess I'll go back to them until this gets resolved. I sure appreciate all your research work on these. I really wanted strobes and when I found these I thought I had a great solution. What I read when buying, and since they are sold by Spruce, sure leads one to believe they are legal. Still a great product and I hope they work it out soon. Thanks again. Quote
RobertGary1 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Posted January 28, 2015 Aircraft Spruce sent out an e mail featuring this product. The ad claimed they were pilot plug-in compatible. It would be nice if Aircraft Spruce took the time to establish the facts and communicate them clearly. Perhaps the manufacturer has legally extablished that these meet angle and brightness requirements. Based on conversation here I have my doubts. Right now, if I had these installed, I would hate to be on the receiving end of a court case where nav lights were and issue. That's my chief complaint about aircraft spruce. Thy are very not up front about what is approved for certified aircraft. Usually you have to check the Q&A section and see if someone has asked. Most of the time it's not. They are very much in the mind set that most of their customers are experimental. Quote
Cyril Gibb Posted February 12, 2015 Report Posted February 12, 2015 Leaving aside the issues of TSO/PMA/Whatever, I bought a set of Navstrobes last week. My plan is to replace anything that breaks on the mistress with something quantifiably "better". A Nav light burned out, so I was attracted to a set of brighter, longer lasting and less power hungry nav lights. Navstrobes seemed to fill the bill so I headed off to Aircraft Spruce. easy peasy... what could possibly go wrong? I installed the lights no problem. Where the incandescent lights created a faint glow reflecting off the hangar wall, the Navstrobes lit up the wall like a Christmas tree. .... or at least 2 of the 3 did .... After confirming that the light was indeed dead, I phoned and got a return authorisation from Aircraft Spruce. I brought the dead bulb to Brantford (my relatively local Aircraft Spruce - 1 1/2 hours) today and opened a new package... Problem one -> all the Navstrobes they had in stock we looked at were very different in construction from mine. A confirmation call to Chris indicated that I had got an old production version of the LEDs. O.K. (I thought) I've got a defective LED from a set of "superceded" LEDs that I was given by mistake. This should be simple. I asked, because the other 2 old style bulbs are in the plane in Waterloo (another 1 hour) could I just take a set of the new ones and I'll return the old ones next week? A S called Chris .... Nope. O.K. then .... can I just pay again for a new set of Navstrobes and then return the defective/old set next week for a credit ? Nope. Apparently Chris handles all warranty issues himself, not through the retailer. After confirming with Chris myself this time on the phone, I had to send him an eMail describing all this. Done. Then he'll send an authorisation eMail back to me so I can package mail the old lights to him. Then he'll package mail a replacement set to me. Groan... I have no idea when all that will happen (Canada Post ain't as responsive as US Mail) Ironically after all this, I have to buy an incandescent bulb to replace the original burned out bulb while I wait. And the cost to mail him the old LEDs is more than the incandescent bulb replacement. Bottom line... bulbs are BRIGHT, REALLY BRIGHT .... and Chris is responsive (or at least answers the phone)... but warranty issues and resolution need rethinking... Quote
Guest Posted February 13, 2015 Report Posted February 13, 2015 Leaving aside the issues of TSO/PMA/Whatever, I bought a set of Navstrobes last week. My plan is to replace anything that breaks on the mistress with something quantifiably "better". A Nav light burned out, so I was attracted to a set of brighter, longer lasting and less power hungry nav lights. Navstrobes seemed to fill the bill so I headed off to Aircraft Spruce. easy peasy... what could possibly go wrong? I installed the lights no problem. Where the incandescent lights created a faint glow reflecting off the hangar wall, the Navstrobes lit up the wall like a Christmas tree. .... or at least 2 of the 3 did .... After confirming that the light was indeed dead, I phoned and got a return authorisation from Aircraft Spruce. I brought the dead bulb to Brantford (my relatively local Aircraft Spruce - 1 1/2 hours) today and opened a new package... Problem one -> all the Navstrobes they had in stock we looked at were very different in construction from mine. A confirmation call to Chris indicated that I had got an old production version of the LEDs. O.K. (I thought) I've got a defective LED from a set of "superceded" LEDs that I was given by mistake. This should be simple. I asked, because the other 2 old style bulbs are in the plane in Waterloo (another 1 hour) could I just take a set of the new ones and I'll return the old ones next week? A S called Chris .... Nope. O.K. then .... can I just pay again for a new set of Navstrobes and then return the defective/old set next week for a credit ? Nope. Apparently Chris handles all warranty issues himself, not through the retailer. After confirming with Chris myself this time on the phone, I had to send him an eMail describing all this. Done. Then he'll send an authorisation eMail back to me so I can package mail the old lights to him. Then he'll package mail a replacement set to me. Groan... I have no idea when all that will happen (Canada Post ain't as responsive as US Mail) Ironically after all this, I have to buy an incandescent bulb to replace the original burned out bulb while I wait. And the cost to mail him the old LEDs is more than the incandescent bulb replacement. Bottom line... bulbs are BRIGHT, REALLY BRIGHT .... and Chris is responsive (or at least answers the phone)... but warranty issues and resolution need rethinking... Cyril, Swing by the shop if you're out this way, I have plenty of loaner nav bulbs. Clarence Quote
Cyril Gibb Posted February 13, 2015 Report Posted February 13, 2015 Cyril, Swing by the shop if you're out this way, I have plenty of loaner nav bulbs. Clarence will do when I'm back next week.... thanks Quote
C-FRJI Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 I have a set on my C. Super bright! Would not be without them! Quote
cliffy Posted July 9, 2015 Report Posted July 9, 2015 C-FRJI After reading this thread you still feel its legal to use them? Secondly have you ever looked at the tip lights from the top down and carefully examined that they DO NOT show the correct light pattern AFT of 90 degrees to the fuselage? Your tip lights are required to show aft of the abeam by a certain amount. These LEDs do not. That is one reason why they are not legal. Also, did your local mechanic install them and sign them off in the log books? Or did you install them without any sign off? I don't think that is legal in Canada just like it isn't down here. I'm only bringing this up so you avoid any issues with your countries "Aviation Leaders". Quote
jetdriven Posted July 9, 2015 Report Posted July 9, 2015 Thats the problem, viewing angle. LED's are very directional, and they cannot meet the requirments anywhere near the certified viewing angles. Im really surprised people continue to install these knowing the risks, they increase the collision hazard. Quote
fantom Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Legality's aside....it's always entertaining to listen to friends who have lots of hanger fairy work done on their planes debate the finer points of this product. I sold my Mooney lat last year, and have an unused NavStrobe Sextant 30w navigation + strobe-light ACS # 11-11987 available for the first taker. $200, including USA shipping. Check it out at www.navstrobelighting.com Quote
Hank Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 C-FRJIAfter reading this thread you still feel its legal to use them?Secondly have you ever looked at the tip lights from the top down and carefully examined that they DO NOTshow the correct light pattern AFT of 90 degrees to the fuselage? Your tip lights are required to show aftof the abeam by a certain amount. These LEDs do not. That is one reason why they are not legal.Also, did your local mechanic install them and sign them off in the log books? Or did you install themwithout any sign off? I don't think that is legal in Canada just like it isn't down here. I'm only bringingthis up so you avoid any issues with your countries "Aviation Leaders". Do wingtip lights need to be visible from behind? My (non-LED) nav lights are buried in the wingtips, but I do have a tiny white light in the rudder that's supposed to work for that view. It's a factory rudder light, in the rear seam, very weak. Can I replace both wing tips and the pitiful rear light with LEDs that don't cost $1000? Why or why not? Quote
jetdriven Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Tell me your LED nav lights meet the specified brightness at 110 degrees at at the 140 degree limit of the taillight. They overlap so other pilots can determine your direction. Quote
DXB Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Seems pretty clear the navstrobes are illegal, as well as of no value for strobe function at night, when the must be lit steadily. But while on the topic of Nav lights, is there a preferred direct plug in replacement LED for the 3 standard nav lights above that is unequivocally legal, draws low current, and is as bright or brighter than the incandescent equivalent? If so I'll likely replace mine with these when they start burning out, and I'd be more comfortable leaving low draw LEDs on all the time during the day. I also hope legal strobe LEDs come along eventually- restoring my ancient Hoskins (?) strobes when they give trouble eventually will cost arm/leg most likely. I know legal LED landing light options exist, but these are pricey for the amount that I'd actually use. Quote
bradp Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 So these are also not PMA'd replacement bulbs, but they include LEDs on the most outboard aspect of the paddle as well on the aft end of the paddle. They also are steady only with no flash, so no issues with placarding. They do not however note the output at various angles and I don't have a sense of what the viewing angle is in the vertical axis. They seem like a far better alternative to the Navstrobe offering. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lednavlightsreplacement.php?clickkey=1043281 http://youtu.be/AGPJfBmloH8 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 No, since they are NOT certified they appear to also NOT be a good alternative... Quote
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