maintenance requirements: M20C & prebuy

[GauzeGuy]

Hey all, new guy here. I'm flying out of KAPA/KBJC with 250 hours and an instrument rating. Mostly a Cessna driver but I have some time in an Archer and Arrow also.

 

I'm looking into buying an aircraft. At first, I was thinking that I'd be getting a typical C172 or a Cherokee 140/150/160. Flying out of the Denver area, it would be good to get into a 180hp aircraft and I'm thinking a Mooney would be a better way to go at a similar cost ($30k or so).

 

I've heard loud and clear that buying a plane is the "cheap" part. So, I'm looking for a realistic accounting as to maintenance costs. I imagine with a constant speed prop and retractable gear there would be more cost inherent to the M20C. How significant of a difference should I plan on? Will the manual gear help to keep costs to a minimum, versus electric?

[Parker_Woodruff]

If you are looking at aircraft of similar model years, the M20C might actually be cheaper on a per-mile basis (if you fly enough) than the other two of consideration.  If you get a good pre-buy inspection, you can get quite a nice M20C for the money these days.

 

Might consider an M20E for fuel injection and a modestly higher pricetag.

[Mooneymite]

What Parker said.

 

You'll pay a little more at annual for the gear check and you'll pay a little more for insurance; your MPG fuel costs will be lower.  Otherwise, the C model will be pretty close in costs to those "other" types, but you'll be so much more satisfied flying the Mooney!

 

Oh!  And you'll be able to make claims on Mooneyspace about how much faster than book (or anyone else's Mooney) yours is...we can't wait.

[rbridges]

I think I saw your post on POA.  I can't say a whole lot about altitude since my airport is 419ft above sea level.  I did complete a trip that took me to 9K, but it was cooler temps.  

 

Your costs shouldn't be too much higher than the others except annual (retractable) and insurance (complex retract).  You do have retractable gears that will need occasional upkeep vs. cherokees and 172s.  Mooneys are notorious for fuel leaks.  Make sure your plane has a recent quality strip/reseal or bladders.  Costs are 7500+ for that.

[John Pleisse]

A "C" model would be the most for your money. Even on a well maintained bird, you can get raked. The high ticket items to watch out for are the tanks, engine, prop AD, landing gear and corrosion of both the spars and cockpit welded cage. Brake parts-cylinders and calipers are not as robust as later model Mooney's.  Most birds age well, but watch out for the big stuff.

[mv_myrx]

I have a Cherokee and am considering  at some time a m20c manual. So far I have not seen anything posted regarding the prop and hub costs to maintain / annual.In my case I do most of my own work and a AP/AI checks it over and signs it off. I have never flown  or worked around a complex so I am looking to see what I might be in for as well. I understand there are a lot of ongoing , re-occurring expenses to consider. What is the experience here?

[jrwilson]

If you can find a mechanic that posts basic rates for the basic inspection part of an annual, it might help get an idea of cost differences.

My mechanic charges about $400 more for a 20c versus a 172 and about $200 more compared to a fixed gear piper

[Shadrach]

I think that any of the 4cyl vintage birds can be had for in the same range as 172 purchase money. The asking prices are all over the place. Most of the 172s in 30kish range have mid time to timed out motors, same can be said for the C market. I'd not skip looking at any vintage mooney within travel distance unless it appears to be a "spouse induced" list in which case it's not really for sale.

How well you buy your airplane will have a huge impact on how good you feel about it down the road ( just like a car, motorcycle or parish the thought, a boat)...

[triple8s]

I owned a C for 5 yrs had manual gear and the old style hub so I had the AD cost me 300 $ a year and I flew it to get the annual done. The bird had long range tanks and the Left aux tank leaked. The main tanks didn't leak. I checked on prices to get it resealed and it would've been expensive yes but it was a slight leak more like a seep so I never got around to fixing it. The whole point I'd like to make is if you get a GOOD airframe with a few mods you want and a decent engine fly it and fix the things you have to along the way. Most important get a corrosion free airframe with a decent engine. A prop ad is no biggie if you find a 60's model C or E and you hear it has no damage history I'd be very skeptical. A frequent flyer that has been properly maintained is what you want.

I was a participant with all my annuals so maybe the costs were lower because of that, so with that mind I usually spent about a grand a year for my annuals. This doesn't count things like a battery every 3 or 4 yrs, a tire here or an instrument repair there.

I traded my C and got an R and miss some things about the C, it was cheaper, burned less gas, was 30 Kt slower but I could drop in to those grass strips with the C, I don't do that with the Ovation. I didn't need a tug for the C, I wish I could have kept it too but hard enough to fly one plane let alone two. Good clean airframe and a decent engine that's what you want.

[carusoam]

Start with a C, get a feel for what ownership offers. Fly it for a few years, or a decade. Then move up to whatever life allows.

If your first plane has to be your last, the E is similar but has fuel injection. Costs a bit more, but will be worth it in the long run.

Always use your head when purchasing a car, boat, plane. PPI is critical!

Best regards,

-a-

[quik flite]

My experience is twice the insurance cost plus , at least twice the annual cost, all maintenance is more expensive and it requires more thorough and frequent maintenance , the hanger is the only cost I found stayed the same. I went from a Piper 140 to a 1987 201. There is no comparison between the two. Do not buy more plane than you need.

[GauzeGuy]

Thanks for all the information! 

 

I found a M20B for $21k. The last annual was done in 2010, and the log books disappeared about a year and a half ago. 

 

My first instinct is run away. Hard to tell history, AD compliance, etc, without those log books. Is there any way to make that type of purchase worthwhile, or is this just a money pit waiting to be bought into?

 

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/177/new-plane-details.asp

[Shadrach]

You live in Colorado. That plane appears to be more suited to "The Bay Area"...

[GauzeGuy]

LOL. I could fly out of Boulder, it would fit right in. Yes, new paint would be a priority.

[Marauder]

Thanks for all the information! 

 

I found a M20B for $21k. The last annual was done in 2010, and the log books disappeared about a year and a half ago. 

 

My first instinct is run away. Hard to tell history, AD compliance, etc, without those log books. Is there any way to make that type of purchase worthwhile, or is this just a money pit waiting to be bought into?

 

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/177/new-plane-details.asp

 

Looks like the same guy has owned it since 1989. There is no damage history on the incident database and i could only find a mechanical issue:

 

 

------- SDR 1 ------- Date Of Report 1992-04-09   Operator Control Number 92ZZZX3531 Date Of Occurrence 1992-02-20   Aircraft Registration 74527 Aircraft Manufacturer MOONEY   Aircraft Group Code M20 Aircraft Manufacturer Model M20B   Aircraft Make Model Sequence 5870206 Air Carrier Name Unknown   Air Carrier Operation Code   Operation Type G   Stage Of Operation INSP/MAINT Severity Factor OCCASIONAL   Air Transport Association Code Propeller Controlling System Precautionary Procedures NONE   Nature Of Condition UNKNOWN Segment AIRFRAME   Descriptive Name Of Part ELBOW Defective Location On Aircraft PROPELLER OIL   Failed Part Condition MISMFG Part Total Time 0   Part Total Time Since Overhaul 0 Component Manufacturer     Component Manufacturer Model   Component Manufacturer Number     Manufacturer Part Number MS208226 Ata Code     Remarks NO PROPELLER CONTROL DUE TO NEW ELBOW INSTALLED PER AD 90-04-06R1. ELBOW WAS NOT DRILLED THROUGH BY MANUFACTURER.

 

This is a tough one. The lack of logs make it a complete unknown. How did he lose them? Have you priced out other B models and see what the market price is? If he is anxious to sell it, you may be able to make it an affordable money pit. $21k is not a lot, but if you are faced with a lot of 1st year debugging issues, you may find a more expensive example with better history.

[N601RX]

Are all the logs missing or just some?  The airframe AD's are few and easy to verify.  Unfortunately there are some old lycoming AD's that are hard and expensive to verify.

[Awful_Charlie]

I found a M20B for $21k. The last annual was done in 2010, and the log books disappeared about a year and a half ago. 

My first instinct is run away. Hard to tell history, AD compliance, etc, without those log books. Is there any way to make that type of purchase worthwhile, or is this just a money pit waiting to be bought into?

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/177/new-plane-details.asp

I would keep looking, but maybe pay a visit if nothing else suitable came up.  Big things for me on that a/c:

1) No logs

2) Reason for sale:  can't afford to fly anymore

3) Maintained by: Owners

 

To me that doesn't sound as though it may have had the necessary spent on it.  It may have had lots of TLC, but unfortunately TLC alone does not keep an aircraft maintained for ever

[GauzeGuy]

Are all the logs missing or just some?  The airframe AD's are few and easy to verify.  Unfortunately there are some old lycoming AD's that are hard and expensive to verify.

 

All logs are missing, theft from vehicle is the stated reason.

 

I was worried about the engine side of things. Appears to have a mid time engine, but if it can't be verified all is well...

 

I would keep looking, but maybe pay a visit if nothing else suitable came up.  Big things for me on that a/c:

1) No logs

2) Reason for sale:  can't afford to fly anymore

3) Maintained by: Owners

 

To me that doesn't sound as though it may have had the necessary spent on it.  It may have had lots of TLC, but unfortunately TLC alone does not keep an aircraft maintained for ever

 

That was another big concern I had. Last annual was a couple years ago, can't afford to fly... So it's been sitting around, collecting dust for a little while. 

[carusoam]

If you have the experience consider it...

If you've never bought a worn out old plane and nursed it back to health, move on...

The log books are the record of what is in the machine down to parts burried in the engine and airframe. To verify these details, which is done at each annual will require a tremendous amount of effort.

The owner needs to come up with the documents, he's had them before, where did they go?

No documents = no annual = no flying, until they get replaced.

Ask the company that is selling it how they would get that done? Then get it done by an independent organization...

Good luck,

-a-

[Marauder]

All logs are missing, theft from vehicle is the stated reason.

 

I was worried about the engine side of things. Appears to have a mid time engine, but if it can't be verified all is well...

 

 

That was another big concern I had. Last annual was a couple years ago, can't afford to fly... So it's been sitting around, collecting dust for a little while. 

 

As a owner, I hate to say this; just give the guy a really low number citing the missing logs requiring a number of airframe and engine ADs to be researched and complied with to make it legal again. See what he says.

 

If he has no money to fly, he certainly has no money to maintain and probably little money to keep it at an airport. He may be willing just to move it. Based on the FAA records I saw, he has owned it since 1989.

 

Sometimes an owner just has had enough...

[chrisk]

The Mooney will definitely cost more to maintain.   You have a constant speed prop, retractable gear, higher annual cost, and higher insurance (due to the retract).  

 

To decided if this is significant, you need to look at the other items.   Remember many of the costs are the same.  The cost to hanger and fuel are going to be about the same.   If you fly IFR, the avionics and autopilot all cost the same amount.   In the big scheme, you may find there is a 10% difference in ownership cost if you hanger the plane.  --Or if you park it on the ramp and fly it 10 hours a year, the difference may be much more.   

[Hank]

Don't forget operating cost savings. I can't swear about Cherokees, but Skyhawks burn~15% less fuel per hour than my C, but flying together I save about 30% vs Skyhawk flight time plus I save another 10% vs Skyhawk fuel burn. Travel the same distance in less time for less fuel.

[carusoam]

Back in 2000, I did the same due diligence. The answer was a1965 C. Had it for a decade. It still had some value when I sold it.

I wonder what the C and P Spacers are saying about this question???

Is there a passionate online group of Cessna Owners talking about speed and efficiency, or what country they will land in when they cross the pond?

Best regards,

-a-

[Z W]

You will find more difference in cost between individual examples of each model than between brands.  What I mean by this is if you buy a well-maintained C, it will probably have a lower cost of ownership than a poorly-maintained Piper or Cessna.  The planes are similar.. my C model had the same O-360 engine as the 172 I trained in, although the Cessna had it added by STC.  Gear, prop, and insurance will add some theoretical cost, but which plane you buy will have more impact on the cost than its design, in my experience.

 

The gas savings that come with the Mooney are not theoretical, though.

 

Your search should be focused on getting the best example of whatever model you prefer.  Preferably one that has been hangared and flown a lot recently, and maintained with an open checkbook.  The alternative is an owner who flies around saying "I don't really need a working oil temperature gauge anyways."  The logs will confirm.

[GauzeGuy]

Thanks for the feedback on that 1961 Mooney. I spoke to the owner today, apparently there are two partners on the plane. One lost his medical, the other lost his job so it hasn't flown for a couple years and is well out of annual. He said the logbooks were ripped off when his truck was broken into, though they were able to find some records, primarily for the engine. 

 

I chatted with an IA on the field about the cost to get it back in annual. He is going to give all the documentation a once over to see what the cost would be. I also just ordered the FAA records (337's, etc).

 

From talking to the owner, it seems it was taken care of pretty well up until the point they stopped flying. Fuel bladders were replaced, etc. After that, aside from some occasional taxiing around it has sat in a hanger. 

 

Before making any real decisions, I'm going to see what the estimated cost is to get it back in annual, and have the IA give it a once over to see if there are major issues. Depending on what is found, this may either be a bad situation to run away from, or a good plane that I can get into for pretty reasonable cost.