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@M20F "Not that you would know" but the description for that 'can' says it's NOT for gas!

Most MSers are probably familiar with the M20 that I picked up. It was listed here as a Free M20A in southeastern Wi. It ended up not being an A model but a straight 0-320 powered M20. I thought I would start a separate new thread to share bringing it back to airworthy. I’ll update this thread as I do the “ inspect and repair as necessary”, or IRAN. This will be probably a year long process to get it flying as my full time job is quite busy and I commute 5 hours home on weekends from Southeastern Wi. My plan is to get it flying, fly it a bit and then sell it. As much as I’d like to keep it long term, it’s just too expensive and I’m not willing to spend that kind of money when I’m done working full time in a year and a half. I’ll start updating this thread from the beginning to where the project is today. Thanks, David

Put one on the gear.motor, too, for when you need to manually lower them.

The one I have collared is the autopilot breaker. That would be the one that I'd need to pull "in a hurry" if I had runaway trim issue. Otherwise it seems that most scenarios would be more deliberate and slow.

You don't want to aim for the numbers because if the wind changes (or you misjudge) and end up short, there is nothing you can do. But, if you aim at some point down the runway, you can slip or s-turn or deploy speed brakes if you have them or put the prop to hi rpm to increase drag.

MGTOW ops are not necessary depending on empty weight. The differences in the weight of a mid body can vary by as much as 400lbs. I’ve heard lots of general claims about take off advantages of 3 bladed props, but I’ve never seen any data. I would be really interested to see it. I’ve always subscribed to the notion that losing weight (both pilot and plane) is the best way to improve takeoff and climb performance. Unfortunately, the Hartzell 3 bladed prop is 14lbs heavier than the compact 2 blade. In my view, light weight is a significant advantage in the relatively low powered segment of Mooney models (the 200ish horsepower group.) Looking at my book numbers, 440lbs makes a significant difference. On a standard day at 7500’, book take off roll numbers show that it takes 67% more runway to lift off at MGW of 2740lbs (1850) when compared to 2300lbs (1105’). An M20 with an operational weight under 2300lbs gives excellent take off performance. When under 2100lbs it has exceptional takeoff and runway performance for a cross country airplane.

See 2 posts that Bob Krommer made to the Mooney List in December 2005: https://donkaye.com/useful-aviation-articles Needing to slip the Mooney on final usually indicates failure to have established a stabilized approach. There are times where a slip to final may be useful. I've had ATC ask if I could do a short approach when on downwind with no time to widen the downwind. A turning full slip (NOT SKID) in the landing configuration to final at 85 knots (no less per Bob Krommer) worked great. Don't do it with passengers. Or sometimes I've had a student misjudge the slope for the base turn and a slipping turn slightly above 85 knots solved the problem. I'm not advocating doing slipping turns in the normal course of events; just that its another item in your bag of alternatives.

Adding to the M20 story, here are some pictures of the disassembly and moving from Gary Indianna to Waukegan IL, UGN. It took about 6 hours to disassemble by myself and the load the tail and tail one in my trailer. That was done on a Saturday. On Sunday I came back south and loaded the fuselage section on a 36 foot flatbed trailer with help from a friend. It was a fun drive around Chicago. This all happened pretty quickly as I received pictures and talked with the broker on a Thursday and when I asked how long I had to move it the answer was by the upcoming Sunday. Time to get moving.

I've related this conversation before here on MS Had a private talk with Bill Wheat many years ago and he related to me that he tried numerous spins in the Mooney (IIRC short bodies) and on one he said it went to five turns and he almost didn't get out of it He swore he'd never do that again. Just a word to the wise from the preeminent Mooney test pilot.

"All pie is good pie"

Sure. I do all the time. You may have already seen it elsewhere. That #7 is separate because it’s really one of those tips and tricks rather than an important skill.

@ProtoFly when you trim for full flap landing (75-80mph), where do you find your trim at? My landing trim is exactly my marked take-off trim

I've done some basic formation flying with another friend and a mega hour CFII (ATP, bla, bla, bla) guy doing the teaching. And I think I got pretty good at it. However... I would NEVER join any kind of large formation flying group going into OSH (or anywhere else). Sorry, I know a lot of guys get excited about it and the group doing it thinks they're doing the needed training and are covering their bases..... But with that many GA pilots of varying skills, the potential for something happening is VERY high. I'm somewhere around 2,600 hours and I still don't think I have the skills to partake in something like that. I'm not a military pilot and I don't fly formation mega hours a year. Just trying to fly into OSH single file and getting instructions causes many a pilot to blow it. Then you put them in a situation where they may not be able to turn left, right or either way.

Hi All, I accidentally bought these via eBay; they have the wrong markings for my plane (which is a -009) but I believe are useful for others. I made a mistake about the application and marking. They were listed "NEW Rochester FUEL SENDER, DIAL P/N 5-01405 , PN 66781-00262, MOONEY 880011-505". They appear to be marked as "78-0012" , "5-0145" on the dial. I think these correspond to Mooney # 880024-005 on the parts manual, but please check. 4 gauges, two packs of two (double what I expected). Will ship all USPS Priority for $45. Known board members only or verify bona fides out-of-band. Thanks, David

I use Air Manager (Sim Innovations) to build my panel and run it on separate screens. You can upload instruments and build a panel that is the same as the panel in your plane. It interfaces with XPlane, so I use XPlane for the airplane model (haven't found a good Mooney model, so I use the Columbia 400 in XPlane) and all the simulation in the background. The Instrument panel hardware (Realsimgear, Flightsimbuilder, propwashsimulation, etc) use plug-ins to interface with Xplane also. My setup is a little complex, utilizing two PCs (a gaming PC for the top screens running Xplane, and a mini-PC for Sim Innovations. Absent from this pic is a gear switch I added later. The The two PCs and Foreflight network through the Wifi, plus I'm linked to the internet for real-time weather, although my biggest enemy is Microsoft forced updates either kicking my plug-ins offline due to version compatibilities, or blue-screening my flight sim altogether (happens about once a year), so I'm considering just loading a stable version and keeping it on a closed network after I saw how FlightSafety manages their BTDs.

Levels of Learning per the Instructor's Handbook from lowest to highest: Rote, Understanding, Application, Correlation. Rote: Read the operator's manual several times. Understanding: Watch Youtube videos of the products you are interested in learning about. Application: Watch Youtube videos of the products you are interested in learning about with examples, read postings on forums such as this or Beechtalk, practice with Apps if there is one, and practice in your airplane. Correlation: Practice in your airplane in the real world with ATC throwing the inevitable curve balls at you. It happened to me today on a student's Instrument Cross Country. Except for the multimillion dollar simulators like operators such as Flight Safety have, I never thought much of inexpensive sims. If you're going to spend in excess of $100,000 for a modern panel upgrade, you need to spend the time and read the manuals from cover to cover--several times. While it may seem boring to some, most of the information needed to competently use the equipment is in the manual. And each of the manufacturers has their own design philosophy. Once you understand the philosophy, I've found that you can usually pretty quickly find a solution to a problem by going to the right menu. Finding the menu quickly is philosophy dependent. I do find it is challenging to learn many philosophies. I feel like I'm an expert in the Garmin world. Not so much in the Avidyne world, although I find I can get around pretty well even there, since the most used actions are fairly obvious. The more complicated actions in any of the worlds such as VNAV as an example, or loading Airways, which is device dependent, require a YouTube video, or an instructor who has "been there, done that". I have found that there is no substitute for practicing with your own avionics. If something doesn't go as planned, it's back to the manual for guidance, then back to the plane to try it out. Unfortunately, company support is usually worthless from my experience. These people seem to be trained to a level that is barely Rote. So set aside some time sit down in a cosy chair, and start your "Adventures Through the Manuals". You'll be surprised how much you can learn.

@Nico1 you’ll find a lot of threads on commercial maneuvers if you google search “commercial maneuvers site:mooneyspace.com” I took the GATTs course out in Kansas for my commercial instruction. Was worried about the engine management before as I wasn’t familiar, but didn’t think it turned out to not be an issue at all. I kept cowl flaps open for most of the maneuvers, but closed on spiral descents. Once you figure out your power settings for the speed you want for maneuvers it’s pretty straightforward. For me, gaining the proficiency with my own aircraft was just as (probably more) important as getting the rating.

The original airplane was built by North American Aviation and designated AT-6 (except the Navy called it an SNJ-3 and the Canadians and Brits called it a Harvard). AT was the designation for Advanced Trainer. After WW II, they were sold quickly for cheap as surplus. But then the newly-formed US Air Force discovered that it needed a trainer and it bought back several hundred (at much higher prices) and awarded North American a contract to update them. These were designated T-6Gs. I have a friend that owns a really nice T-6G and I have about 5 hours in the front seat. I've got another 5 or so hours in the back seat of an AT-6A mostly flown with an ex-Reno race pilot. If you think a Mooney stall is wicked - try a T-6 .

And here’s one that should definitely not be used for diesel…

Original capsules sold. TY for the interest and additional info above!

Thanks for the clarification. I get fuzzy on the nomenclature... I got to fly a T-6 Texan II sim once, a while ago... consolation prize at the time, but I liked it and was going back to an Eagle squadron so couldn't complain. That would be a fun personal plane, no doubt. I had been thinking of the old Navy-ish trainer with the radial. An instructor was doing upset training at my home drome recently in one of these for TBM drivers (there goes the neighborhood! ;)).

I'm just curious- For those who "trim in the flare" what airspeed are you trimmed for on final before the flare ?

I wonder... When some of the CARB standards were appied, a lot of excellent gas cans suddenly became "no longer gas cans" and you were instead directed to buy flimsy, overpriced plastic cans with ludicrously complicated theoretically-vapor-reducing designs. A lot of good cans were suddenly no longer approved. E.g. the Sceptre plastic cans used by the military among others. I got the impression that some cans sold as "not for fuel" could easily and safely be used for fuel, but others not. The whole thing was a great example of unintended consequences of well-meaning regulation. So it might be worth some legwork on materials, etc. my 2 cents

I think that's the crux of learning and training advanced avionics, GPS units, and navigators...There are a lot of procedures that you may not use regularly and aren't trained regularly. Some things are time critical, whereas others you can request delay vectors, or just put the unit in heading mode while you set things up. So the big question, is what's the "right" mix of simulation, Garmin Aviation Trainer knobology type computer work, and flight training. What items need to be included in an "Understanding your panel" guide book. What list of training tasks should be routinely exercised and understood. Even your basic steam gauge panel will have GPS Nav/Coms that require experience, understanding and education (and I've not yet flown a VOR approach that I thought would be my choice if weather was bad). Some of these tasks need to be trained with an instructor, but a lot of them are just process tasks that can easily be exercised in the air or at a desk chair. i.e. if you've never been asked to remove a hold do you default to "direct to" hold exit or do you just remove the hold by clicking on the hold and then remove, or do you try to reload the procedure and say "no" when it asks if you want to load the hold? @midlifeflyer I like your list as it's something that we all can work on independently as well as with an instructor.

Your original post was not clear which IPC you were referring to, airframe or engine. I thought the same as @Fly Boomer that you might have been looking at the airframe IPC.

any option to borrow a 165 (or 155) to test ?

That's not the original panel in from a 67F, so it seems this airplane has custom avionics. I have factory schematics for various vintages of the M20F, but I'm not seeing any circuit breakers in them labeled ALT LOW VOLTS. Avionics shops are supposed to provide the customer with new schematics when a major change like this is made, but the shops almost never do that. So... just a guess... ALT LOW VOLTS doesn't strike me as having anything to do with the alternator itself. Rather, I'm guessing that breaker (it's a circuit breaker, not a fuse) powers a system that lights a warning light and/or sounds a buzzer, when bus voltage falls below what the voltage regulator is trying to hold. Do you have a "LOW VOLTAGE" light in your panel? If so, it's probably powered by that breaker, and won't work if the breaker is tripped. The light may be failing in a way that is causing high current, and therefore causing the breaker to trip. It's also possible the breaker itself is just worn out and is tripping even though the current it's carrying is normal - this does happen on occasion. Suggest you check the bulbs and/or wiring associated with your LOW VOLTAGE light/buzzer, if you have one. But again, this is all just a guess.

There are small variations and very large sudden variations. Clearly, the engine won’t run on zero fuel pressure, so there is likely a bad connection. I would fix that. The smaller variations might remain if they are caused by vapor as is common.

@Marc_B Thank you for taking the time to share all that. Very cool and informative.

They are white.

It's white, I don't know the exact brightness rating however

I went with the G-5 backup for two reasons. 1) I like the square format better and 2) I already had it in the panel as a backup to an Aspen 1000 Pro. A friend just did a dual G-5 to G3X Touch and put the second G-5 on the right panel. Not including the WX500 (i purchased that directly), my panel was about $100K. It was probably more, but the shop I used believes that a quote is binding, except for changes made (adding the second G3X, etc). Many of us believe that a new product will come out (either G4X or G3Xi), and that it will not be a huge price to upgrade as there will be a market for used G3X Touch. My avionics shop owner is on an advisory board to Garmin and everyone is adamant that any follow on needs to fit the same panel cutout. For audio panel I picked PS Engineering. It was a close call, but they specialize in audio panels. And were very helpful and took time to go over things when I called when making the decision.

It has been discussed many times here. The issue with PowerFlow on the J models is that the induction and exhaust system on the on M20J is really well optimized ("tumed" as you refer to it) in its stock form. Whether it was luck or good slide rule/LoPresti common sense engineering of the J, the gains to be rung out over the stock design are minimal. In 2020, @PT20J highlighted that the PowerFlow rep was at MooneyMax and admitted so much. Other owners like Wistarmo (who is no longer on MS) reported no improvement when bolting it onto a 1993 MSE. PowerFlow, founded in 1997, has been putzing around with this for nearly 30 years. If they can't find more power for the J, either through flow studies/testing, engineering or just plain trial and error, I doubt anyone will. They were first working on this when the J was still in production. Certainly no one else will waste time and money for a shrinking fleet. On the other hand, the PowerFlow has been reported to deliver some benefit to pre-J's because of their sub-optimal plumbing.

In cruise flight with the trim full down, I used a spring scale to measure 40 lb of force required to fly level in my M20J.

I used to do that in my M20F. One day it started to buffet. Scared holy bejesus out of me! Took my feet off the rudder and pointed the nose at the ground. I wasn’t quite so aggressive after that.

There have been a few threads like this one, and I always wonder what I’m overlooking. I usually take off with the trim set exactly where it was when I landed. It seems to work fine. No hard pulls, no wheelbarrowing. Don’t know what I’m missing.

Yes SO the moral of the story is? Make sure your pitch trim is set up correctly by someone who knows what he is doing. Quit guessing at settings and do it right.

August Newsletter went out on the 15th. If you missed it (because you aren't subscribed ) here it is. Full Newsletter Articles: Cost of an Engine Overhaul SOG: The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam New Engine Break-In Flights 1-5 Oh, The Places You'll Go - Part II Phoenix and Back Below 5,000' Download PDF: 202408 - ITS Newsletter.pdf

Exactly. I am sometimes overly anal (or anxious?) but I’ve been known to wash my windscreen after a trip before putting on the cover if the airplane is to be left outside. I don’t want the cover rubbing in those bugs!

The big mistake was apparently doing stalls at only approx 2500’ agl. The minimum safe altitude for doing Mooney stalls is 5000’ agl - which is what we use at MAPA PPP’s. Falling leafs and any stalls shouldn’t be feared. A recent J model private student got very good at doing the falling leaf - so much so when he was practicing for the practical exam stalls he kept going into the falling leaf and i had to talk him out of it. But by pushing on the yoke aggressively till you feel light in the seat on any stall gets it’s flying again right away - just avoid a secondary stall by trying to aggressively to minimize altitude loss. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what I do for most takeoffs, along with Flaps Up. But when loaded up near gross, then it's Takeoff Flaps and align the marks. Check your CG with full fuel, no baggage and two adult males up front, you'll see why we put in a little Nose Up trim! But absolutely use the trim wheel. That's what it's for, so the plane will fly hands off.

Weather/taxiing on grass during Osh (for any participant) could be a concern as there is typically weather that rolls through at some point every year. 2022/2023 had some crazy rain storms that passed through Saturday night/Sunday after the Mooney Caravan arrived. We found that quality outdoor tents were a nonissue, but the el cheapo Walmart special tents got turned into to flattened bath tubs! That year the Caravan vehicles and board went to the local outdoor store and picked up all the tents they had for the unfortunate fishies. This year rain rolled through and I think everyone was unscathed. It never lasts long, and the HUGE Caravan circus tent is a great place to congregate, drink a cold one, and chat with your fellow Mooney pilots as the bugs get washed off your wings. The taxi marshallers do a good job of placing cones on low spots and the grounds dry out pretty quickly as the remaining days are typically SUNNY. I still taxi decently slow/carefully, yoke pulled back to my chest, and they do a great job of rolling the grass smooth for the show. The three times I've been at Osh, I had no problem taxiing where I was being directed. We did have a pilot this year peel off after landing and go to general aviation parking area; he wasn't staying/camping at Osh but wanted to come with the Caravan. So it is possible to park somewhere else...although I think it's WAY more fun to camp beside your Mooney! Securing Aircraft: This is probably one of the benefits of the Caravan. You're surrounded by mass arrivals and I think that most mass arrivals are ahead of the curve in terms of Osh camping! These are the aircraft that usually have LED solar lights, cutting boards under the wheels, the Claw type tie downs, canopy covers, camp seating, etc. Given that most of the Caravan are seasoned vets, you can be sure none of the aircraft around you are going anywhere for most weather that would be coming through. I've found that the Claw is a great tiedown to use, works well, and easy to place and remove. Leaving Osh: Most pilots bring wooden or plastic cutting boards for the wheels; it distributes the weight over a larger footprint to keep from sinking into the grass as much. I picked up 3 cutting boards from Sam's that I reuse every year. Still, it takes more than just you to pull your aircraft out, but fortunately you have a whole group of Mooney friends to help make it easy! Food: The caravan always plans a group dinner every year under the tent. There are also several group meals that get planned in Madison as well as at Osh. Breakfasts are included Sunday - Wednesday under the tent each morning (part of the small Caravan registration fee). Lunches you are on your own. This year there were several that brought coleman stoves and we cooked out steaks or hotdogs. Food is definitely something that seems to get refined every year! At the clinic I attended there was one pilot who had some issues with feeling comfortable with engine management and trusting that his engine settings were fine (they were). But after a couple sorties with a seasoned safety pilot in the right seat he wasn't quite ready...and he wasn't signed off. But despite that there was never a problem with safety of flight, and that pilot has the opportunity to continue to learn and attend a future clinic to continue training. Hopefully as he improves, formation flight will gel and he'll join us. But if not, we still had a great time meeting another Mooney pilot and I'm sure he learned a lot in the process. Sometimes Formation flight may not be for you, but you don't know that till you try. If at any time a pilot feels unsafe, they can always call knock it off...for any reason. This is ingrained into the training both for your safety and the safety of others. BTW, we also have had a Beech pilot that joined that didn't get signed off. So it's not a gimme to get approved to fly in the Caravan. And if not for formation flying...how else are you supposed to get cool pictures!!

Twin Bonanzas have been equipped with a verity of geared, Lycoming sixes but never a 720 to my knowledge. The GO engines magnificent sounds…

Procedures were improved after the previous incident... prior to that, participants did not have to demonstrate proficiency every year at a Caravan clinic, or equivalent, and an experienced Mooney owner & pilot was "vouched for" and allowed to join the group in Madison. Bottom line, he screwed up but fortunately nobody was hurt. After a thorough investigation, the rules for participation were changed for the better. Clinics were standardized, and I think overall the level of professionalism and thus safety has increased tremendously. Can something still happen, sure, but I would suggest the chances are much higher on the Fisk arrival or in the non-standard OSH VFR patterns than on the modern Caravan arrival. I think the Clinics will train to proficiency or weed-out those that are incapable of the airmanship required, or don't have the right attitude to do this safely before they get to Madison. I'd rather arrive with 50+ of my trained and proficient colleagues AND with the airport closed for our arrival than get in the random conga line and have line-jumpers, un-planned chaotic holds, very high performance base-to-final turns, runway incursions, etc. The basic element is a 3-ship in fingertip formation, and those are repeated down the line for as many as it takes, so no sloppy echelon or loose gaggle like the early days. Generally the elements are grouped with folks that have flown together in their own regions/clinics, but nowadays since the training is standardized, pretty much anyone can plug-in and be safe. The performance profile accommodates C's and G's with OSH loads, or TN's. It works. I won't fault anyone for their desire to keep their pride and joy away from the risks associated with taxiing and camping at OSH. We all know there have been prop strikes, thunderstorms and hail, etc. up there throughout the years. With some coordination, it might be possible to fly the Caravan arrival, and perhaps break-out for pre-arranged hard surface or hangar parking on the field, or simply taxi back and depart for FLD or elsewhere if you want to experience the camaraderie but minimize the risk once at OSH. So far I've been fortunate with my taxiing & camping experience, but I have left earlier than planned more than once to avoid predicted weather... For me, the risk is well worth the fun having a base camp full of Mooney people and planes in the N40. It makes the OSH experience 2x the fun.

It's just a microswitch, it shouldn't have anything to do with altitude. I believe it should come on any time you're at full throttle.

Have you replaced the o-rings on your Acclaim (Newton 300) fuel caps? The Mooney Illustrated Parts Catalog has a note that says they should be replaced "every 5 years or with unusual wear". If they haven't been replaced water can get in. Here's the kit for each fuel cap: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pnpages/05-02218.php

The ice on the bottom of the wing is environmental icing. Icing from a cold soaked fuel into moist air. That is why you see MD-80s de-icing in Florida in the middle of the summer, until wing heaters were installed. With regard to being high on the approach, practice sometime with a safety pilot, gear down, flaps up, at best glide speed a full cross control slip. On a long body you can get about 2500-2700' FPM out of it. You can lose a lot of altitude really, really fast. I too had a problem with soluble water in the fuel in the winter. 99% pure IPA works wonders, but it is hard on the tank sealant. Make sure when you add it you are adding it in the fuel stream as you refuel. Do not just dump it in the tank because you will find your tank sealant wearing fast below the filler port. I have found 1 to 1.5% is more than enough. (Thank you Paul Kortopates)

On my E, I wired the LHS into the green down light. If you put the gear down on downwind or before you put any flaps out the LHS will not say anything. At 200 feet and below, if the LHS is not sensing the gear down it will repeatedly tell you to check the gear. The landing height system is another tool in the toolbox that is quite useful. I have been using them in the Boeings I have flown for years. It will not stop you from an approach speed that is to high and proceeding to bounce on the runway so be vigilant for that. Getting a lot of landing practice is the best. In my 757 I new exactly where the tires were by the sight picture. Having the callouts were a great backup after a long day of 12 hours of flying and close to an 18 hour duty day. You can have a long day in any plane and the LHS is nice to have.

Hmm. So because we study the issue in depth, the method of failure for classic resistance fuel senders is a loosening of the pivot at the sender body. this additional clearance needs to be accounted for as accurate contact pressure needs to be maintained between the beryllium follower and the resistance grid. Too much and the resistance grid wears out or the float doesn't fall onto the fuel surface and too little and there is intermittent contact with the grid - the latter is the source of windshield wiper fuel gauges. Rebuilt senders typically put in a new beryllium follower and resistance grid and do not address the pivot pin wear.... or corrosion pitting or security of the assembly. We get fuel level senders sent to us everyday - it isn't a good look let alone something to fly with. Your current senders when they and the aircraft was new - utilized tooling for the fuel senders that was accurate and maintained to produce a large number of relatively accurate fuel senders per year. For the aviation market - the tooling was brought out a few times a year for a replacement production run as the primary customers had moved on - I suspect that output quality for this tooling was neglected as well. It was a technology that was commonly used and common in its day but it was replaced wholesale 30 yrs ago So yeah we are more expensive - but we use aviation grade materials and practice. We set up what we do to be low volume and to hold accuracy for life despite that. Accurate fuel level at this point is proving to be the most effective way to prevent fuel related accidents. We and others in this field providing accurate fuel quantity in aircraft have yet to see a fuel related incident or accident aircraft. as I have been quoted - zero is a pretty impactful number.