Speed break

[marks]

I have 'em and now I'm spoiled.  There's a 172 slowly making his way toward the downwind and much closer to the airport than me.  I keep the speed up in a shallow decent and I'm doing about 170 kts.  The tower seeing how much faster I'm going puts me infront of the 172 and I have no trouble getting to the field first and safely ahead..  But hey!  I'm way over my max gear extend speed of 132 kts.  No Trouble!!  I got speed brakes!  I pop those suckers lift the nose without climbing, get the gear down on final and roll off the runway at the first turn-off.  -  Now I know what you're going to say.  I should have better planned my descent, flown slower, let the 172 get in front of me, followed him in his giant landing pattern and that I don't need speed brakes, but I like 'em.

[PTK]

Speed brakes are great tools and pretty much a necessity on many airplanes. Life would be a lot more complicated, in the jets I fly for a living, without them. The higher your fly, the faster you go, and the greater the margin you have between cruise, pattern and gear / flap speeds the greater the need for them. On slower, normally aspirated aircraft that are normally flown at low altitudes there is normally little or no need for them. As you climb the ladder, the usefulness of speed brakes increases. If you're considering them on your Mooney M20J I would simply ask myself, based upon my typical flight, how often would they have been helpful? They're like TKS systems - if you live in Phoenix and spend 99% of your time flying in the SW you probably wouldn't gain much utility by having FIKI certification. If you live in Minnesota your answer might be different. Same thinking applies to speed brakes. If you need them for thy type of flying you do, they're very nice to have and worth the expense. if you don't, they aren't.

This is wisdom!

I have them on my J and have been trouble free. I can count on one hand the times I've really had to use them in over five years.

With proper speed and decent management I find that I don't need them.

I do pop them occasionally though just to exercise them and for the "that's sexy" factor!

[jlunseth]

I have speedbrakes on my 231 and they are a "special use" item.  I fly in the Flight Levels frequently and only rarely am in a position where I need them during a descent.  The key is to ask for a "slow descent" at a point well out from the airport.  That is the art though, it is not always simple to figure out where and when.  The big factor is tailwinds.  I shoot for a 500 fpm descent and use the Garmin VS function to tell me when I am approaching that.  But the tailwinds don't always stay with you during the descent.  I have descended from as far as 125 nm out on a truly windy day, but 100 nm or less is usually better.  But then, I am not a Bravo or other big engine, I am told some of them are so slick that just pushing the nose over to descend can cause Vne to be exceeded.

 

There are uses for them.  When ATC wants best forward speed, the brakes may be needed to bring the plane to Vge for landing.  I have made a couple of landings where I was forced to a position high over the field and needed to lose several hundred feet before running out of runway.  They are good for that.  They are also good for adjusting speed during power off 180 landings for commercial.

[Jamie]

I've had a couple of trips now where I got to do the 1000fpm decent thing with speed brakes. It's -awesome-. Stay high, stay fast until very close, then push the little button and nose over. I'm in the green the whole way, but coming down at 1000fpm+.

 

I know that differs from the accepted way of using them. Don't care. These little babies are awesome, and I'd probably add them (having experienced them) if they weren't already there.

 

(Not saying other's method of use are wrong... but I think there's going to be two types of speed brake users, and I'm in the "these are fun" camp.)

[jlunseth]

I am different.  Awesome to me is pushing the nose over and getting a ground speed of 270 during the descent.  Dive and drive is not as much fun from the Flight Levels, as screaming it at turboprop speeds from 125 nm out.  My kind of fun.

[David Mazer]

I plan a 700 fpm descent from as far out as needed from the flightlevels and ATC is usually accomodating.  But, in complicated airspace or near terrain while IFR ATC tends to bring me in very high and then says - okay, land.  Might work for smaller engined Mooney's where you can just pull the throttle but I can't without endangering my engine.  Speed brakes are very helpful in those situations.  I also use speed brakes when I'm flying in and out of cumulous.  My cruise IAS is very close to 170s and I prefer to be close to 150s when penetrating clouds.  Rather than flying slow the whole time, I just pop out the speed brakes a few seconds in advance and put them away on exiting the cloud.  All without having to change power settings.  Works for me.

[M20S Driver]

Speed brakes help me stay high and out of turbulence when I fly over Sierras to KTRK. I use both speed brakes and landing gear (SB at 160-180 knots and LG and SB at 120 Knots) for descending to pattern altitude. 

 

I usually plan my approaches high so that I can glide to land if necessary.  It is much more difficult and slower without the speed brakes.  I am not sure if I would spend $10K to install them but I am sure happy that I have them on the plane.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I had speed brakes on my Encore and now my Acclaim. They're just another arrow in the quiver. I've learned to fly with or without them.

 

For example, when approaching Denver from the west on an IFR flight plan, ATC commonly holds you at 14,000' or higher until you're about 10 miles west of the Class B, then they clear you to 8,000' and tell you to avoid the Class B. The bottom of the Class B 10 miles ahead is 10,000', so you've got to drop almost a mile in 10 miles. If I'm solo in VFR conditions and there's no more than mild turbulence, I'll drop the gear and deploy the brakes, which gets me about a 2500-3000fpm descent rate and under the Class B in time. CHT's drop from low 300s (I fly LOP) to high 200's... no big deal.

 

However, it's more common for there to be moderate to severe turbulence over the Front Range, and for me to have my wife on board. In this situation, I ask ATC for a deviation to the south to avoid the Class B, then east to descend at a comfortable rate past the airport with no speed brakes, then back to the airport. It's a trick I just thought of earlier this summer and I wish I would have thought of it sooner.

[rocketman]

Ever hear of shock cooling cylinders in decent?  Its real. Speed breaks help to protect from cylinder damage in descending. Also, it allows to adjust landing speeds on final approach when the gear and flaps are down without adjusting power. I have always used speed breaks until I am off the runway onto the taxi. It makes the Mooney land like a Cessna. 

[wishboneash]

Ever hear of shock cooling cylinders in decent?  Its real. Speed breaks help to protect from cylinder damage in descending. Also, it allows to adjust landing speeds on final approach when the gear and flaps are down without adjusting power. I have always used speed breaks until I am off the runway onto the taxi. It makes the Mooney land like a Cessna. 

 

I keep the power in so I don't have an issue of shock cooling. Within approx 4 miles of the airport, at about 2000 AGL, I level out, reduce power, reduce speed to under 130 knots and drop the gear. On final approach I am at 80 mph and can stop the aircraft in 400-500 ft.  I don't use speed brakes unless I have to.

[mcpilot]

Speed brakes are another great tool to have to aerodynamically control your plane. It's great to have more option and more choices.

[DAVIDWH]

Hmmn:

 

Let's see if I understand this:

 

You are flaring and landing with speed brakes out and all power off?  I understand they are less effective under 100 knots, but the sink rate is still controllable with no power added?

[Bob - S50]

It comes down to how you use the plane.  You have several factors to consider:

 

1.  How often would you need them?  Do you get slam dunk approaches very often?  If only occasionally maybe you could: slow to 90 in anticipation of dumping the nose to trade altitude for airspeed, lower the gear, ask for vectors (just say unable - we did that a lot in the DC9), plan your route differenctly to avoid the slam dunks.  Are any of those possible/acceptable?

 

2.  How much will they cost?  Is it worth thousands of $ to need them twice a year? Once/month?  Every flight?  Don't get them to recover from mistakes, learn to plan better.  Only get them if you'll NEED them enough to make the cost worth while.

 

3.  How much do they weigh?  Every pound of mods you put on a plane is a pound less useful load you have for fuel, pax, and bags.  If you routinely operate with a takeoff at max gross, and the brakes weigh 11.64 pounds (don't know what they weigh), that's 2 fewer gallons of fuel you can carry.  You can do a lot of vectoring on 2 gallons of fuel and buy a lot of gas for the price of installing and maintaining speedbrakes.

 

Good luck with your decision,

 

Bob

[mcpilot]

Same thing with flaps...  Who needs them...  

[Jsavage3]

I prefer to plan my descents and thus not waste fuel.  But you don't always get it right...

 

If ATC asks for something that you cannot do without using the boards, tell them unable.  I won't use the boards to fix ATC's errors.  That applies to me in my Mooney, my jet at work or back in the old days of military flying.  The boards are there for me to use to fix MY errors!  If it's terrain that is the issue, well, terrain never makes errors.  Plan your flight accordingly.

 

My Mooney has no boards (thankfully) which causes me to PLAN THE DESCENT AND ARRIVAL!  There is no excuse for finding one's self high, fast or whatever at the FAF...it all comes back to planning.  It's all about energy management and, IMHO, putting out "drag devices" is not an example of efficient flying.

[Earl]

If ATC asks for something that you cannot do without using the boards, tell them unable.  I won't use the boards to fix ATC's errors.  That applies to me in my Mooney, my jet at work or back in the old days of military flying.  The boards are there for me to use to fix MY errors!  If it's terrain that is the issue, well, terrain never makes errors.  Plan your flight accordingly.

 

My Mooney has no boards (thankfully) which causes me to PLAN THE DESCENT AND ARRIVAL!  There is no excuse for finding one's self high, fast or whatever at the FAF...it all comes back to planning.  It's all about energy management and putting out "drag devices" is not an example of efficient flying.

I can tell you don't fly around Class B airspace very often if you consider that kind of request to be an "ATC error". I can't tell you how many times coming into Atlanta's airspace I've asked for lower and have been told no because of traffic.  What do you want me to do, declare an emergency every time I don't get my planned descent wishes?  I can also tell you don't fly for the airlines as they use spoilers all the time in managing their speed and descent.  So I do "PLAN THE DESCENT AND ARRIVAL!" (emphasis added in response to your caps lock problem).........I just don't always get to have things my own way because amazingly there are actually other airplanes out there obnoxiously occupying the space I want to occupy when I want to occupy it.  Dang it, I hate when that happens!  Don't they know that their wants, needs and wishes should be secondary to mine?!?!?  I had a plan for my descent and arrival and the world must obey my wishes.  

 

Just cracks me up when people act like the use of the tools given to us on our planes is somehow a cause for shame or a result of our lack of exceptional pilot skills.  I usually go to the red board for this kind of lecture from the master pilots......

[Jsavage3]

I can tell you don't fly around Class B airspace very often if you consider that kind of request to be an "ATC error". I can't tell you how many times coming into Atlanta's airspace I've asked for lower and have been told no because of traffic.  What do you want me to do, declare an emergency every time I don't get my planned descent wishes?  I can also tell you don't fly for the airlines as they use spoilers all the time in managing their speed and descent.  So I do "PLAN THE DESCENT AND ARRIVAL!" (emphasis added in response to your caps lock problem).........I just don't always get to have things my own way because amazingly there are actually other airplanes out there obnoxiously occupying the space I want to occupy when I want to occupy it.  Dang it, I hate when that happens!  Don't they know that their wants, needs and wishes should be secondary to mine?!?!?  I had a plan for my descent and arrival and the world must obey my wishes.  

 

Just cracks me up when people act like the use of the tools given to us on our planes is somehow a cause for shame or a result of our lack of exceptional pilot skills.  I usually go to the red board for this kind of lecture from the master pilots......

Throw your spears "Earl" -- I don't take it personal.  ATC works for me and you should consider that idea.  Unfortunately, your theories about me are incorrect.  I can assure you that I do in fact operate at our Class B airports on almost a daily basis.  I cannot remember the last time I had to use boards on my jet...ok, well, other than the landing roll.

 

So, if your rant is over, maybe we can get back to discussing something constructive and as well as let others know that sharing their personal opinion is something that is OK and not something that will cause "people" to jump down their throats in an unprofessional manner...

[Earl]

Throw your spears "Earl" -- I don't take it personal.  ATC works for me and you should consider that idea.  Unfortunately, your theories about me are incorrect.  I can assure you that I do in fact operate at our Class B airports on almost a daily basis.  I cannot remember the last time I had to use boards on my jet...ok, well, other than the landing roll.

 

So, if your rant is over, maybe we can get back to discussing something constructive and as well as let others know that sharing their personal opinion is something that is OK and not something that will cause "people" to jump down their throats in an unprofessional manner...

Gee, it sounds like you took it personal.  Jumping down your throat....really???  I think I was responding to your "spears" about those that actually lack your piloting skills because they use speed brakes.  You stated that anyone that uses them doesn't plan their descent and arrival or is a result of an ATC error.  Sorry but that is exactly the kind of comments that I see all the time on the red board and rarely here on Mooneyspace.  

 

Yes ATC works for us but given all your experience with your Mooney and your jet you surely realize that you are not the only plane out there using their services, right?  Is it their job to clear everyone out of your way simply because you had a plan for your descent and arrival?  That doesn't seem very constructive to me and you sounds a bit defensive.  Frankly, if I have to tools to accommodate ATC and their need to work with other traffic I am glad to use them.  Happens to me on a semi-regular basis flying into Atlanta's class B.  Could I say unable all the time if it doesn't fit my desires?  Sure, but why do that if in fact I can help them out?

[Jsavage3]

Gee, it sounds like you took it personal.  Jumping down your throat....really???  I think I was responding to your "spears" about those that actually lack your piloting skills because they use speed brakes.  You stated that anyone that uses them doesn't plan their descent and arrival or is a result of an ATC error.  Sorry but that is exactly the kind of comments that I see all the time on the red board and rarely here on Mooneyspace.  

 

Yes ATC works for us but given all your experience with your Mooney and your jet you surely realize that you are not the only plane out there using their services, right?  Is it their job to clear everyone out of your way simply because you had a plan for your descent and arrival?  That doesn't seem very constructive to me and you sounds a bit defensive.  Frankly, if I have to tools to accommodate ATC and their need to work with other traffic I am glad to use them.  Happens to me on a semi-regular basis flying into Atlanta's class B.  Could I say unable all the time if it doesn't fit my desires?  Sure, but why do that if in fact I can help them out?

 

ATC slam dunks happen all the time, but we don't have to play.  I guess I'm more concerned about my passengers quality of ride than I am in trying to make ATC happy.  I'm never afraid to say unable or ask for a vector if I elect not to play the dive-for-ATC game.

 

My initial and still current opinion is that boards are not necessary and that their use is an example of poor planning.  

 

In my Mooney, there has only been one type of situation that I've encountered where I would have liked to have had boards and that was descending in moderate or better turbulence.

[Earl]

ATC slam dunks happen all the time, but we don't have to play.  I guess I'm more concerned about my passengers quality of ride than I am in trying to make ATC happy.  I'm never afraid to say unable or ask for a vector if I elect not to play the dive-for-ATC game.

 

My initial and still current opinion is that boards are not necessary and that their use is an example of poor planning.  

 

In my Mooney, there has only been one type of situation that I've encountered where I would have liked to have had boards and that was descending in moderate or better turbulence.

 

OK, I think we get your opinion that those that use speed brakes are poor planners.  I simply disagree that every plan you have flying in the IFR system will happen to your satisfaction and having an additional tool in the toolbox to work around those pesky ATC errors gives me much more flexibility.  I suppose absent having speed brakes I too would ask for vectors to avoid a more rapid descent or simply say unable and force them to work everyone else around me.  Thankfully I have them and when I need them I use them, which isn't very often but often enough to be glad I have them.  I guess in your mind that makes for poor planning and we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Since I almost always travel alone on business I am not all that concerned about a quick descent but I can see how some passengers might find that uncomfortable.  I suppose in that case I might ask for an alternative.  But absent passengers and with my speed brakes out I can keep power in and descend rapidly without going too fast........its a beautiful thing and I thank the good folks at Mooney for installing them and I will continue to use them guilt free.

[chrisk]

I have speed breaks

I use my speed breaks some times.  Sometimes when I plan poorly.  Sometimes because it is convenient. 

I might pay a little more for a plane with speed brakes.

I would never pay the cost to install speed brakes on a Mooney that didn't have them.  There are plenty of other tools in the box that let you slow down.

[Earl]

I have speed breaks

I use my speed breaks some times.  Sometimes when I plan poorly.  Sometimes because it is convenient. 

I might pay a little more for a plane with speed brakes.

I would never pay the cost to install speed brakes on a Mooney that didn't have them.  There are plenty of other tools in the box that let you slow down.

Agree with all this although I would add a 3rd category: "Sometimes when ATC asks me to do something that is easier with speed brakes."  I too would never pay to add them to an airplane that doesn't have them but I would and did pay more for a 252 that had them.  Interestingly though I didn't buy that model of Mooney because it had speed brakes, I bought it based on the research I did on the best model of Mooney I could afford at the time.  Sadly I bought at the peak of the market but I don't plan to sell anytime soon so I am OK.

[Jsavage3]

Earl, I would like to apologize to you and the rest of my MooneySpace brothers/sisters for how I've handled myself regarding this particulat topic.  It was un-called for on my part and a bit over the top, unprofressional even, regarding my verbiage.  I would like to say that since my Mooney does not have speed brakes, I really should not have anything to say about whether or not I would/should use them if I did have them.

 

My world at work needs to stay at work.  I should not and will not in the future allow my techniques for work creep into my comments on MooneySpace.  Yes, the rumble from my speed brakes at work scare my passengers to death and hence we don't use them unless absolutely forced too...no, I don't fly for an airline and when CEO xxx or actor xxx complains, everybody in my circles listen very carefully.  Speed brakes shouldn't and wouldn't affect my family in the Mooney because they would know what I was up to and would anticipate them.

 

Over the last day or so, since my jumping into this with both feet regretably, I have surmissed that there would be several times in a Mooney where I could definitely argue that boards would be helpful -- descending in turbulence, descending quickly thru a layer of icing (but like someone pointed out, watch out for them icing up and not retracting on you), ATC requests, etc.  Are they a tool?  Absolutely.  Would I pay to have them installed on my Mooney?  Probably not, but if they were already installed I'd probably "exercise them" from time to time.

 

Again, my apologies and please know that this MooneySpace forum is absolute gold -- best seen to date by far and it always reminds me of how lucky & proud I am to actually have Mooney keys in my pocket...very lucky indeed am I...

 

I humbly request that we soldier on.

[WardHolbrook]

If ATC asks for something that you cannot do without using the boards, tell them unable.  I won't use the boards to fix ATC's errors.  That applies to me in my Mooney, my jet at work or back in the old days of military flying.  The boards are there for me to use to fix MY errors!  If it's terrain that is the issue, well, terrain never makes errors.  Plan your flight accordingly.

 

My Mooney has no boards (thankfully) which causes me to PLAN THE DESCENT AND ARRIVAL!  There is no excuse for finding one's self high, fast or whatever at the FAF...it all comes back to planning.  It's all about energy management and, IMHO, putting out "drag devices" is not an example of efficient flying.

I don't know that I'd go that far, there are certainly times where they are very useful but If you've got them and you find yourself using them on each and every flight then you need to examine your flying style. You probably need to make a few adjustments.

[Jamie]

Ok, here's an example of where I used them this weekend. And it was to help ATC. -And- it was pure self interest.

 

I'm told to expect 18L. I planned (yes, I planned) my descent to have me lined up with 18L a few miles out 1000' above TPA so I could stay comfortably above the urban area north of the interstate. My hangar is in the middle of the two runways (18L, 18R). Construction currently prevents easy access from 18L. There's a LONG taxi required if you land there to get back around to the "old Ts".

 

Anyway, when I'm handed off from approach to tower: "Huntsville Tower, 1138J descending through 3500. fyi, I'm headed to the old T's after landing."  (I started doing this before the construction because they assume I'm headed to Signature, and it saves everyone some aggravation with them having me exit at the wrong taxiway.)

 

The controller asks me if I'd like 18R. "Sure!". But, there's a commercial jet departing, and another one ready to go. Controller:"Hold on... I'll see what I can do." I know he's trying to decide if he can get them gone before I arrive. So, I pop the speed brakes and just like stomping on the brakes in a car, I slow right down. It's amazing... it's an on/off switch. Slow down to gear extension speed, out comes the gear, the flaps, raise the speed brakes, "slow" flight at 85kts and give the departing aircraft a chance to get off my runway.

 

Could you do it without speed brakes? Prolly. But it was soooo much easier with.