Second M20J (rental) flight, oh what a ride!

[inktomi]

Hello -

 

I wanted to relate my story of today's 1.4 PIC time in my club's "new to us" M20J. I recently passed my IFR check ride, in G1000 DA40 aircraft - but I've always loved the look of Mooney's and so to congratulate myself on passing the IFR ride I thought I'd have some lessons in the Mooney and get my complex endorsement as well.

 

The complex endorsement part of this training seems like really common sense stuff.. but let me talk to you about my flight today. #2. We were going to do stalls, slow flight, steep turns and some touch and gos. Cool.

 

For anyone reading this who, like me, is here because they like the look of Mooney aircraft and hasn't flown one yet - just wait till you get to do stalls. We went up to 10,000' over near Primm, Nevada to do them. What people say is right! This particular aircraft doesn't have a working stall horn, and it's quite a ride when it does break. 10 degrees nose up to 30/40 degrees nose down and about the same to the left or right in the blink of an eye. Quite the experience, and one that I'm very glad I had. The first stall on my own I made the mistake of giving the slightest bit of aileron input which turned the stall into a half developed spin. Fixed that, and all the rest were much better. 

 

OK, so slow flight.. normal checkout stuff. You're wondering why I'm here typing this boring story.. 

 

After our second touch and go, gear up, climbing out around 700' over the ground.. no more engine. My CFI was able to get it restarted by pulling out the mixture, but it ran very rough and certainly not like it was running the rest of the 1.4 hours. Full throttle caused it to run very rough, full mixture caused it to die. Since we were developing some (limited) power we turned back and made a downwind landing after declaring an emergency. 

 

We were trying to figure out what could have caused this failure. All the indications were fine, temp, fuel, fuel flow, nothing out of the normal. Other than the engine sputtering, everything else seemed normal. Very strange, and I'm interested to see what the shop finds.

 

So, all in all, quite the exciting second ride in our club's M20J. My first emergency, and no harm to us or the plane. All in all, not bad. 

[scottfromiowa]

Pulled mixture...Would not have been what I would have done...Would have confirmed boost pump and tried tank switch...If alone i would not have tried that down low. Nice save and good to hear the "end" result. Please do post findings on engine....

Ball centered...

PULL mixture....

Just another routine flight in a Mooney

It is ALL uphill from this point forward. Buy your instructor a steak! Would your renters insurance have covered an off-field landing?

[inktomi]

Yes, my renters insurance would have covered me. We had been flipping tanks throughout the flight, so we didn't want to risk it since it was still "running". We were really barely off the end of the runway when trouble began, so we didn't have a long debugging period to work with once we decided that we'd make the runway rather than one of the city streets in front of us. 

 

By pulled the mixture, what I meant was we pulled it from full rich to about where we had it - more or less - when I leaned for our return trip from 10000'. I was thinking maybe something with the mixture lever connections could be faulty - the engine recovered immediately when we "leaned" it. It had been full rich for the touch and goes I was doing.

 

I'll post when I hear what's up.

[wishboneash]

Worst case, you may have lost compression in a cylinder. Lost cyl #1 a couple of days ago on the take off run. Leak around intake valve. Aborted the landing in time. Just after an annual too. I hate annuals! Something always seems to go wrong after one.

[jetdriven]

I wouldn't do touch and goes in a complex airplane. It might get more exciting than you bargained for. There's a reason all the type clubs strongly discourage the practice.

[inktomi]

What is the reasoning against touch and goes? We're doing them as part of the aircraft checkout, rather than as complex training per-say. Getting used to landing the Mooney.. it seems quite a bit different than the Diamonds that I'm used to. 

[aaronk25]

Cause my friend with everything going on the chances of forgetting to put the wheels down when landing are increased.

[Jeff_S]

What is the reasoning against touch and goes? We're doing them as part of the aircraft checkout, rather than as complex training per-say. Getting used to landing the Mooney.. it seems quite a bit different than the Diamonds that I'm used to. 

 

T&Gs by yourself in a complex plane like the Mooney can be a handful. A lot depends on what you set as your landing configuration. If you use the recommended landing config of full flaps, this will require a great deal of nose-up trim during the landing phase. So when you move to the "go" part of a touch n' go, the aircraft is configured for too much climb and could easily stall. So there is a lot to do to reduce flaps, dial back trim, then raise the gear...it's just a lot of work for a single person. When I was doing my transition training the instructor said he would manage flaps so all I had to do was trim and gear.

 

Now, if you are a thrill seeker and you want to do them alone, use a landing config with half-flaps and trim as needed. In most cases this puts you exactly into a T/O configuration so you can leave flaps and trim alone and just focus on gear. Still a lot to do, but workable.

[aaronk25]

T&Gs by yourself in a complex plane like the Mooney can be a handful. A lot depends on what you set as your landing configuration. If you use the recommended landing config of full flaps, this will require a great deal of nose-up trim during the landing phase. So when you move to the "go" part of a touch n' go, the aircraft is configured for too much climb and could easily stall. So there is a lot to do to reduce flaps, dial back trim, then raise the gear...it's just a lot of work for a single person. When I was doing my transition training the instructor said he would manage flaps so all I had to do was trim and gear.

Now, if you are a thrill seeker and you want to do them alone, use a landing config with half-flaps and trim as needed. In most cases this puts you exactly into a T/O configuration so you can leave flaps and trim alone and just focus on gear. Still a lot to do, but workable.

I disagree. Getting the trim Down to avoid a nose up condition when full power is applied is something that should trained for. What happens when a deer runs out across the runway and you need to go around and all the flaps are out? Nose up.

The reason to avoid continuous touch and go practice is the higher likelihood of landing gear up.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you are not comfortable doing touch and goes on any runway you operate on, you shouldn't be operating on it.

[Hank]

I like to have at least 5000' of runway to do Touch n Go's. My latest ones were on Sat., 29 June--4 practice approaches, 3 TnG, 1 miss on a circle-to-land with short final obstruction [a tree-covered hill at 12V, where I had planned a full stop, back taxi and take off due to runway length].

 

Just like flying at night, some people do, some people don't. I did two with the DPE on my Instrument check ride. But I am OCD checking the gear lights and the floor indicator anyway, and the "Go" is just a normal takeoff [positive rate, gear up] a little further down the runway.

[HopePilot]

Are touch and goes doable in a Mooney, of course.  Is the additional risk worth the benefit?  I personally do not think so.  Is flying around the Grand Canyon worth the risk?  Absolutely.  

[John Pleisse]

What was your field elevation and OAT when the rough-running-pull-the-mixture-mess-with-the-throttle thing happened? High DA? Your stalls should be sharp and brisk, not dramatic. Even at a high DA. 10k+. Just curious.

[jetdriven]

Experience has shown, and at last four pilots on this board have either totalled or seriously wrecked their Mooneys doing touch and goes.  If you don't lose control of your airplane (while it is moving at relatively high speed and very unstable), then muscle memory takes over and you put the wheels up.

 

If you are at a 7,000' runway, do full stop-and-goes, and use a checklist, I can see the benefit. But the benefit is very small, 1-2 tenths of tach time per hour saved.

[John Pleisse]

Not only that, it is essentially a go around and the nose will jump immediately requiring significant control. Nothing like a DA40.

[PMac2277]

Really glad this ended well. When I got my 231 I tried doing T&G's once and it scared the crap out of me. I tried it again a week later and it scared the crap out of me. No more T&G's. Too much to do, not enough runway to get it done!

[inktomi]

I don't think that I'd be doing them by myself, but with a CFI to split the work with a bit it doesn't seem so bad. Keep in mind I have less than 5 hours in Mooneys, so I'm still on the learning the sight picture etc phase of getting comfortable with the aircraft. I see the points about T&Gs though, and they certainly are valid.  We are also working with runways where the shortest option is 5000' so there's no rush to get things done quickly. I'll certainly keep in mind the nose high triim though, that's a very good point.

 

Sorry if I read as stalls being violent. Spirited is more like it. Of course in Southern Nevada during the summer you don't get glassy smooth air to work with, so there are thermals nudging you around the whole time.  

 

OAT yesterday morning was around 90 degrees, for a density altitude of around 6000 feet. KHND field elevation is 2492', and we had our failure around 3100'. 

[John Pleisse]

Think you may have just been operating too rich? High DA TO's requires you lean for smoothness.

[inktomi]

I'd certainly think that was the case, except that we had been full rich for two touch and gos. If that was the case, shouldn't we have had engine roughness when I first went full rich?

 

The engine behaved exactly like it would if you over leaned it - stalling, rough running. It only full quit once, but it had several other hickups while we were in the air. It ran better at low RPM on the ground taxing to our maintenance hangar. 

[jetdriven]

I don't think that I'd be doing them by myself, but with a CFI to split the work with a bit it doesn't seem so bad. Keep in mind I have less than 5 hours in Mooneys, so I'm still on the learning the sight picture etc phase of getting comfortable with the aircraft. I see the points about T&Gs though, and they certainly are valid.  We are also working with runways where the shortest option is 5000' so there's no rush to get things done quickly. I'll certainly keep in mind the nose high triim though, that's a very good point.

 

Sorry if I read as stalls being violent. Spirited is more like it. Of course in Southern Nevada during the summer you don't get glassy smooth air to work with, so there are thermals nudging you around the whole time.  

 

OAT yesterday morning was around 90 degrees, for a density altitude of around 6000 feet. KHND field elevation is 2492', and we had our failure around 3100'. 

 

With a CFI to "split the work" you have TWO sets of hands rummaging around in the cockpit while rolling down the runway. 

 

At a 6000' DA the engin won't produce maximum power when full rich but it shouldn't stall or run rough. I'd have it looked at.

[KSMooniac]

Lots of opportunities to learn from your brief experience so far.  I've got to ask how much Mooney experience does your instructor have?

 

I'm in the camp of no T&G as well.  You should practice go arounds, but not T&G as there is very, very little benefit and lots of risk.

 

You should look up the Target EGT method of leaning and use it on your next flight.  Full rich is WAY too much for 6000' DA.  Your engine roughness could've been from lead fouling if you were running full rich for a while before the event.

 

A working stall horn is required, and you're tempting fate as a new Mooney pilot flying with it INOP.  You should be hearing the horn when landing, otherwise you are too fast and that is bad for many reasons.  The plane should be grounded IMO until it is fixed.  I bet the stall vane/switch assy in the wing is dirty and could be fixed with some electrical contact cleaner and repeated actuation of the vane.

 

Listen to the advice here so you don't end up with a bent Mooney!

[RJBrown]

 I prefer to land in the takeoff configuration when conditions allow. Makes a go around a non event. 10,005' of runway at my home drome makes it easy. I only practice T&G/Stop and go's if I have to for currency. Night currency gets tough during the summer months. Landings have to be between 10pm and 4am to be legal. Kind of a stupid FAR if you ask me.

 My initial checkout in a J (1992 MSE) we used  2500' long by 25' wide runway. He had me fly multiple full stop landings until I was comfortable, this was at a field elevation of 5512'. Air speed control was paramount. If you learn how to land a Mooney PROPERLY from the start you'll be OK. Try to land it like a draggy C or P and you might not like the experience.

 Flying out of Denver my mixture knob is never within an inch of the firewall. My field's elevation is 5880'. With density alt over 6000' you should lean for take off.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Glad to hear your emergency ended safely. FWIW, I absolutely will not do T&G's in my Acclaim, but I do practice go-arounds and missed approaches.

[Marauder]

Interesting perspective.  The shortest runway that I have operated my Mooney from is 2355 feet at sea level.  It was plenty long and I have no reservations whatsoever about using this particular runway or a bit shorter one again.  But I will be damned if I would do touch and goes there.

 

Jim

 

I was based at S37 for a bit. It has a 2400' runway with a 167' displacement on one side and 110" on the other. To boot it has a slight uphill in it. I have done some touch and goes on it, but you need to be on your A game. One thing that is helpful is electric trim to offset the landing configuration nose up trim.

[fantom]

I apply the same rule for T&G's as I do for landings on gopher infested grass. Lucky a 100 times, and unlucky once just aren't good odds.