Practicing Stalls in Mooneys (Poll)

[yvesg]

Ok so by assuming that some stall practice is a good idea... how should the aircraft configured like? I recall when I got checked on the Mooney many years ago, the instructor wanted me to set it into landing configuration.

The other day, I did that : Gear down, some flaps... the last flight I did, I kept it clean: gear up, no flap.

Yves

[WardHolbrook]

Ok so by assuming that some stall practice is a good idea... how should the aircraft configured like? I recall when I got checked on the Mooney many years ago, the instructor wanted me to set it into landing configuration.

The other day, I did that : Gear down, some flaps... the last flight I did, I kept it clean: gear up, no flap.

Yves

You should be able to recover from stalls in all configurations - gear up, gear down, flaps in every configuration, straight and level and turning.  

[bnicolette]

As always don't do anything you're not absolutely comfortable with in your airplane.  If you're not comfortable with doing stalls though it might behoove you to get a competent instructor and go out and practice some.  Surely when you guys get your BFR you get a chance to practice them?

 

It's always good practice just to put your aircraft/pilot through some paces.  I've had a couple students that would constantly try to bring up a fallen wing with the yoke and the Cessna's would let them get away with it.  I used to have to place both my hands under the yoke so they could not turn it forcing them to use the pedals to bring the wing back up or it would keep falling.  I suspect that if you tried to just turn the yoke in the Mooney it would deepen the stalled wing quickly.

[aviatoreb]

Years ago my father was flying our M20E with a friend of his who was an FAA examiner. The FAA man did not have much time in a mooney so he asked my father how the mooney reacted in a stall, to which my father entered a power on stall at about 6000 feet. The mooney went right up on its nose and the left wing kicked over and the plane went into a spin. My father got momentarily disoriented due to the wing over and pushed in the wrong rudder pedal and tightened up the spin, in the meantime, stuff is flying all over the airplane as it is plummeting down thru 3500 feet with the FAA man just calmly sitting there watching everything with his arms crossed. My father quickly realized his mistake and kicked in the correct rudder and came out of the spin at just under 3000 feet. After all this was over and the plane was straight and level the FAA man turns to my father, and with with his arms still crossed and with the same dead calm look on his face said to my father, "well I guess they don't stall to well do they." Lesson learned - have sufficient altitude for your mooney stalls, you never know when something out of the ordinary will happen and you can't expect any help from the FAA.

 

Wow quite a story.  I like the punchline "you can't expect help from the FAA".

I take away from your story and my story of my hangar neighbor who inadvertently spun his M20C that while I believe we should be stall capable and current as it is part of our PPL and we should remain sharp to that standard, a Mooney is not a 172 in terms of its stall behavior so to be extra vigilant to do it correctly ad with some altitude - and center the ball. 

[jetdriven]

Really ? I've stalled many types , and never had the experience I had w/the Mooney....I guess I'm not the caliber of pilot that you are.....

But you are scared of stalls in Mooneys. Do your passengers know this?

[Ned Gravel]

 

Personally, I found the tomahawk much more challenging than the Mooney.

 

I have a friend who works at Transport Canada that owned a Trauma-Hawk for many years.  He finally bought something a bit larger, but when he and I flew together, his comment was that the only difference in flight characteristics between his aircraft an mine was the cruise speed.  His needed agressive pitch down to get out of a spin before anything else.  

 

We never tried it in mine, and I nave never gone beyond the actual stall break although I did drop a wing once.  But if it ever happens, I know to push hard on the yoke and keep it there until the rudder responds.  In the meantime, I try to fly not too close to the edge of the envelope that includes spins.

[N201MKTurbo]

FWIW

 

If you are instrument rated you should be able to do all these stalls under the hood at night.

 

If you can't, I wouldn't fly IFR or at night.

 

Besides it is kind of fun.

[WardHolbrook]

...a Mooney is not a 172 in terms of its stall behavior so to be extra vigilant to do it correctly ad with some altitude - and center the ball. 

Many of us have been lulled into complacency by the airplanes that we learned to fly in. Many of the Cessnas and Cherokees have essentially had the spin designed right out of them. It's difficult, but not impossible, to get them into a spin and when they are forced into one they tend to pop right back out of it the minute you release the pro-spin inputs. Not a lot a of pilot technique required. The problem is that when we move up from our training aircraft we find out that there are a lot of aircraft out there that are more than ready to spin when provoked and demand proper recovery techniques to recover. In other words, it's not enough just to let go of the controls - that may work in the 172 that you learned to fly in, but not so much in your Mooney. A few flights with an experienced aerobatic instructor in a Citrabria doing spins and other basic aerobatic maneuvers will go a long way towards inoculating you against spins and severe upsets.

__________________

[N201MKTurbo]

OK, stop saying bad things about the Tomahawk. I learned to fly in the PA-38. Even before I got my license I was doing long cross countries in it for business travel. I used to run over to my instructors place of business for endorsements for the cross countries. And after I got my license I flew it everywhere. One day I logged 9.5 hours in it. From Phoenix I flew it as far east as Albuquerque, west to L. A. north to Salt Lake City.

 

My instructor made me spin it for every lesson.

 

Two years later I bought my first Mooney an M20F because my instructor said if he could buy any plane it would be a Mooney Executive.

[jezzie]

I practiced stalls shortly after I had my J model refurbished. Felt I needed to know what the real stall speed numbers were for my Mooney. Really a non event, normal recovery every time, even though I have done aerobatics's in a Citabria I did not want to practice any spins or any other unusual maneuvers.

[FloridaMan]

I'm scared to stall my plane without someone who knows Mooneys on-board. The stalls have always been a non-event, aside from me being nervous about them. I keep my feet very loose on the rudders and never put in firm input without a counter from the other foot to ensure that my nerves haven't jammed the opposite pedal against me. 

[N601RX]

Based on what Don Mckay had written I wasn't in any hurry to stall mine, but the CFII said do some. The 1st time (from 6000ft) I was not cordinated and it dropped a wing very quickly, almost to the point of being vertical. He had me do several more after that and I made a point to use the rudder and not the aileron hold the wing up and they were all non events. I held the last couple a little longer and as long as I stayed on the rudder they were no susprises.

Trying to hold the wing up with aileron will get you in trouble in a hurry.

[Bill_Carter]

OK, stop saying bad things about the Tomahawk. I learned to fly in the PA-38. Even before I got my license I was doing long cross countries in it for business travel. I used to run over to my instructors place of business for endorsements for the cross countries. And after I got my license I flew it everywhere. One day I logged 9.5 hours in it. From Phoenix I flew it as far east as Albuquerque, west to L. A. north to Salt Lake City.

My instructor made me spin it for every lesson.

Two years later I bought my first Mooney an M20F because my instructor said if he could buy any plane it would be a Mooney Executive.

OK, OK, didn't mean to get your emotions stirred up. 9.5 Hours in one though, that's a long day. I honestly wish I could have flown it a bit more just because my instructor (Do any of you know Ron Huddleston, he has a J?) said it would make me a better pilot. I even went as far as considering one for a time builder. I never did spin the thing, but did plenty of stalls. It stalls really nice I must say. Non event.

I have been thinking about many of the posts on this subject and how some of you say don't use the aileron to mitigate the stall. I must admit I am scratching my head on that one. I was always taught to use the rudder. I guess I hadn't ever tried to use the aileron. Now, from what I have read, the Mooney rudder isn't as responsive as, say, a 152 or 172. Is this correct? Is this because of rudder travel limits, or surfice area, or maybe something else?

[Bill_Carter]

Found a pic online of the ol Traumahawk sitting in front of my FBO at OVO.

[aaronk25]

So how deep are you guys going into the stall. I can recover I'm any configuration as soon as I feel a wing starting to fall out by full forward yoke and opposite to the stalled wing rudder.

But can you and I don't think you can in a mooney, keep the yoke full aft and keep the aircraft upright in a stalled condition like you can in training aircraft????

[aviatoreb]

So how deep are you guys going into the stall. I can recover I'm any configuration as soon as I feel a wing starting to fall out by full forward yoke and opposite to the stalled wing rudder.

But can you and I don't think you can in a mooney, keep the yoke full aft and keep the aircraft upright in a stalled condition like you can in training aircraft????

 

My previous airplane - a Diamond DA40 - had a cool stall trick.  They call it the falling leaf.  Pull the stick-yoke all the way back and just hold it there.  Keep the ball centered which is especially easy in that plane. The airplane goes nose up but does not break out of the stall, it just begins to descend at 300-400fpm and 40kts of forward speed.

[N201MKTurbo]

  9.5 Hours in one though, that's a long day.

 

I went and looked it up in my logbook. I was doing preventative maintenance on printers at American Airlines travel agencies.

 

5-10-83 PA-38 N9276T   KDVT-KYUM (KNYL)-KIGM-KPGA-KDVT

[midlifeflyer]

My most recent ones were this past January as part of a checkout. Did power on and power off stalls, both visually and under the hood. Didn't see anything particularly strange or difficult compared with the other make/models I fly. 

 

Honestly, if you're afraid of stalls (or, for that matter, any maneuver)  in an airplane you fly, get some training until you are more comfortable (or get a different airplane). There's a difference between disliking a maneuver and being afraid of it. 

[201er]

I admit to being a chicken when it comes to stalling Mooney. I ran trough all the stalls on my initial checkout and haven't felt any desire to experience one again since. I've learned to appreciate the excellent slow flight characteristics of the laminar flow wing and have done a pretty good job staying in the envelope.

I guess I've read some terrifying stories about spins in Mooneys and haven't wanted to chance getting into one by practicing stalls and chancing a screw up. I'll stall or even spin a skyhawk or glider all day long, but I haven't touched a stall in my Mooney since the original checkout. I read that even the Mooney test pilots were terrified of Mooney spins. I've talked to guys who've had to part with their favorite trousers after experiencing a spin while practicing stalls in Mooneys.

I am confident in my abilities to anticipate, avoid, identify and recover from a stall. I practice one on every landing. I haven't been compelled to do one aloft in years.

[BorealOne]

201er, suggest you get some time in with Bruce Jaeger or another Mooney-specific instructor. As other people have said, being comfortable with your plane in all modes of flight, including stalls under the hood, is part of proficiency.

[201er]

I've never done a stall under the hood, wouldn't want to, and couldn't imagine how it could actually happen as I'm 90kts+ till I break out. Plus I have AOA so even in IMC I can ensure I'm nowhere remotely close to stall.

My strategy has been to stay out of stalls in the first place. This doesn't mean I'm chicken to fly slow. I can do slow flight all day long and avoid stalling. But I just don't feel comfortable stalling a Mooney intentionally.

[aviatoreb]

I've never done a stall under the hood, wouldn't want to, and couldn't imagine how it could actually happen as I'm 90kts+ till I break out. Plus I have AOA so even in IMC I can ensure I'm nowhere remotely close to stall.

My strategy has been to stay out of stalls in the first place. This doesn't mean I'm chicken to fly slow. I can do slow flight all day long and avoid stalling. But I just don't feel comfortable stalling a Mooney intentionally.

 

I think stalls in IMC is the "what if I screw up - then how do I fix it" scenario.  I agree that keeping speed up as you should on an approach plate you should be no where near a stall - and that AOA with voice annunciator is a big big help (...and I am having mine installed starting June 24), but this training is for what if I screw up.

 

I can easily see how you can screw up and get too slow on an approach.  Autopilot off.....and autopilots can fail - the on-off plastic switch on my own autopilot failed and my autopilot went inop during an approach just 9 months ago - so I was hand flying.  Now suppose you are handflying and you become distracted and instead of doing 90....you are pulling back a bit too much and you are doing 75...then 70....  It shouldn't happen I agree but I believe training against it as if it could happen is the prudent way.

[Awful_Charlie]

When I did my Mooney conversion, I insisted on stalling to the buffet in each configuration - I didn't want to be relying on some electric gadget (be it stall warner or another AoA) as there are several emergency conditions that could mean turning off the master.  It doesn't worry me at all, and if I get bored boring holes in the sky, have been known to set myself a 'challenge', one is slow flight for 5 mins with the stall warner on continuously and only allowed to stop warning for say two chirps in the 5 mins.  Maybe throw in a couple of 'S' turns for good measure (allow an extra chirp for each turn - it's actually quite difficult) 

 

Over here the IR is checked annually, and one of the manoevers to be demonstrated is stall recovery under the hood on limited panel - I would expect a flea in the ear if there was any negative G shown during this (standard patter from one of my regular instructors seems to be 'my Granny is sitting on the back seat doing her knitting, please don't make her drop a stitch during this test')

 

It's nothing to worry about, but if you have concerns, go and practice it, you've only got a bit of Avgas to lose.  If it makes you happier, take a spin trained P2 with you and do it high, after all, control of the aircraft and systems is the experience and skill between you and the ground

[johnggreen]

You can't fly a Mooney like you do a Cessna.  Well, you can, only it will eventually kill you.  The Mooney wing reacts rather abruptly from the effects of a deep stall.  If it is uncoordinated in the least during a deep stall, it will make an instantaneous roll toward a spin condition.  If the the pilot does not make the correct control inputs it will enter a spin.  If this occurs at pattern altitude, recovery is not possible.

 

Every Mooney pilot should read the NTSB report on the accident that killed Joel Smith in Texas a few years ago.  Who was Joel Smith?  He was the Mooney test pilot that probably signed off the initial flight of 90% of the Mooneys owned by the members of this site.  No, Joel was not the pilot, he was in the right seat, but the scenario is the classic example of a pattern altitude stall/spin accident.

 

We can talk about practicing stalls, which you should, and getting spin training, which you should, but the most important thing is to recognize the flight attitudes that can get you to the point of "no return".  I have probably done a thousand spins in my flying hours, upright, inverted, accelerated, flat, etc. in Aeronca Champs, Pitts Specials, Waco's biplanes, Decathlons, Stearmans, and Cessna 172's to name a few.  That doesn't make me an expert, but it does make me aware.  Aware that I don't want to spin a Mooney from any altitude and especially from pattern altitude.

 

In the last 25 fatal Mooney accidents, 5 were stall/spin.  It is not an academic subject.  It happens.

 

The two characteristics that I have observed and will share here about stalling Mooneys is this.  From a deep stall, the Mooney wing requires a sharp pitch down to recover.   A pitch down that will fill the wind screen with mother earth which is a sight that most pilots are not used to seeing.  Secondly, after the pitch down, if you try to recover too soon, you will enter a secondary stall that is ALWAYS a deep stall and the next break will be a close relative of violent and almost surely kick over into a spin entry.

 

Finally, I will leave you with this observation.  Most "instructors" don't know squat about spinning an airplane.  As previously pointed out, they did at least one to get their rating and that's probably it.

 

The Mooney is a very good and stable airplane, and predictable.  Just know its flying characteristics and don't monkey with the monkey.

 

Jgreen 

[201er]

The two characteristics that I have observed and will share here about stalling Mooneys is this.  From a deep stall, the Mooney wing requires a sharp pitch down to recover.   A pitch down that will fill the wind screen with mother earth which is a sight that most pilots are not used to seeing.  Secondly, after the pitch down, if you try to recover too soon, you will enter a secondary stall that is ALWAYS a deep stall and the next break will be a close relative of violent and almost surely kick over into a spin entry.

Do you push forward or simply release the back pressure? How does the trim condition affect this?