Mooney Price Ranges

[Bill_Carter]

Hello all,

I am new to the forum. I don't own a plane.....yet. I keep looking at the various options out there, compare them to my likes and dislikes, and for some darned reason I always end up right back in the Mooney listings. I don't have a ton of hours yet and quite frankly, I am out of proficiency at the moment due to employment obligations.

Anyway, I have a question. I have been looking at the M20C, E, and Fs. I am liking the F models the best. However, I notice in most of the listings (Controller) the price ranges are so varied it is making me scratch my head over it. This seems to be true for almost all models, not just the ones in my wallet range (I wish I had extended tanks on my wallet!). Now I understand that some are better maintained than others, but can anyone give me something to go on here so I will not be flying in circles trying to find a decent Mooney to sit my tail in??

No pun intended, well, maybe a little!

Happy Flying!

Bill

[Mooneymite]

When it comes to Mooney prices, the devil is in the details.

 

The details are:  hours on the engine, avionics, general condition (paint and interior) and history.  After that, there's other equipment installed and how well a particular airplane suits you.

 

It's not uncommon to see the same basic model priced many thousands of dollars apart...and for good reason.  In my opinion, money-wise, you're best off to wait and find exactly the plane you want than to buy one and then up-date/modify to suit.  However, some folk would rather customize an aircraft to their taste.

 

Generally Controller's prices are "on the high end".  I suspect actual selling prices are significantly less, but there's no way to know and track that sort of info.  Personally, I like to follow the listings on Barnstormers.com.

[DrBill]

I purchased mine 2 years ago.  Here are the parameters that I found affect price the most.   1: Avionics.  2: General Condition  3;  Engine Time  4 Total Time  5: WHat the owner thinks he needs to sell it.

Sometimes 5 becomes number 1.  My plane was on the market for about 6 months at 10k more than what I paid.  He slowly dropped the price and then I made a take it or leave it offer with reasons.  He took it.

My requirements were quite strict, must be within 2 hrs flight time,  and E or F and GPS with Autopilot.  Took me about 8 months to find my plane.

BILL

[1964-M20E]

Define you mission first. Where you plan on flying, what type of flying VFR/IFR, how long of trips, how many people how much baggage. Sounds like you may have done that already since you keep coming back to the same manufacturer and type.<br /><br />Secondly define what you want in it avionics paint speed mods etc. Like one of the other posts get as much as you want in the plane up front it is cheaper and easier than modifying it yourself. Myself I found both of my planes in several months each. My first plane I did not know very much but I was looking for something that I could get into the air with and I found a 1964 E model. My second plane with more knowledge and IFR rating changed some of the things I was looking for. I put looks last because at 10k feet no one on the ground can see what shape the paint is in. I have avionics at the top since that is what I use to fly the plane and what I interface with the most. In the end all have to come together with compromises in each catagory.<br /><br />1. Avionics<br />2. Mechanical condition<br />3. looks<br />

[Bill_Carter]

Hmmm, thanks for the information. This makes a little more sense now. I just read the post that asked if folks would consider buying a high time plane. Most said they would if it was maintained properly.

Dr Bill - You brought up another ponder I have had. Just how flexible are most of the prices? I expect it would usually depend on the seller though. Another good point - don't be in a hurry. I have some time to shop, so that shouldn't be a big problem.

Bill

[Bill_Carter]

Define you mission first. Where you plan on flying, what type of flying VFR/IFR, how long of trips, how many people how much baggage. Sounds like you may have done that already since you keep coming back to the same manufacturer and type.<br /><br />Secondly define what you want in it avionics paint speed mods etc. Like one of the other posts get as much as you want in the plane up front it is cheaper and easier than modifying it yourself. Myself I found both of my planes in several months each. My first plane I did not know very much but I was looking for something that I could get into the air with and I found a 1964 E model. My second plane with more knowledge and IFR rating changed some of the things I was looking for. I put looks last because at 10k feet no one on the ground can see what shape the paint is in. I have avionics at the top since that is what I use to fly the plane and what I interface with the most. In the end all have to come together with compromises in each catagory.<br /><br />1. Avionics<br />2. Mechanical condition<br />3. looks<br />

Well, let's see. I am not IFR certified, but that is in the plans so I want that ability. I live in the midwest and have kids on both coasts, so I will need to fly extended legs. Kids are grown, so it's me and my wife. Avionics is on the top of my list. I especially want a coupled cruise and strike finder. I am usually a bit figity in seat, so a little extra room goes a long way. Speed brakes would be cool, but not a deal breaker. Oh yeah, T placement for the instruments would be a huge plus. I am sure I have more if I think about it.

Bill

[KSMooniac]

As our planes get older, the price ranges will increase considerably.  At one end is the un-loved, un-upgraded vintage plane with original panel, nasty interior, and faded paint.  It might or might not be airworthy.  At the other end is the fully modernized example with great cosmetics, re-sealed tanks, autopilot, etc.  This price range might be $20k-$100k for a C/E/F, although you won't find many $100k pre-J models because the ones with that much invested will likely only come up during an estate sale.     You can pour way more than $100k (total) into any vintage Mooney and not be able to sell it for $80k, too.

 

Having said that, there are quite a few threads on this site about buying vintage Mooneys, so you might spend a couple hours reading through those.  http://www.themooneyflyer.com/  has a great evaluation tool based on our expert Mooney broker/evaluator so you can play around there and get a better idea what the goodies are worth when you compare various planes.

 

IMO, avionics and especially autopilots are the biggest factors these days.  I'm already assuming a great, well-maintained airframe without corrosion or major/questionable damage history as I wouldn't buy a plane with such issues.  Minor damage history like a gear-up landing, hangar rash, etc. is not a deal-breaker in most cases.  Avionics and other upgrades typically only return 50% of the cost at sale time, so you're always better off spending more at purchase vs. adding stuff later, financially-speaking.  However, if you plan to own the plane for a long time (say 10+ years) then buying a project and upgrading to your specs and enjoying your upgrades for years isn't crazy.  (I bought a near-premium J and have continued sinking money into improvements).

 

Just to start you in a more realistic frame of mind, you're very unlikely to find speed brakes (not necessary) or a strike finder/stormscope in most vintage Mooneys.  XM or ADS-B weather is much easier/simpler and will be "good enough" to go without a spherics device unless you're a risk-taker.  Most vintage Mooneys have the vacuum-based Positive Control (PC) system which is a full-time wing leveler.  They might have the add-on Brittain autopilot system that can work well and is inexpensive, but it is better than nothing.  If you're lucky, you might find one with an STEC and that would be a great find since installing an STEC these days can cost $15-20k easily, and not many folks will spend that much on a $50k plane.  Any vintage Mooney can get you to either coast in a day of flying from the Plains.  I'm looking at trip to Delaware in July and it is only ~7 hours of flight time from Wichita in my J.  I've previously flown to FL, CA, and nearly everywhere in between...

 

If you want a ride, post your location and you can likely find one of us nearby!

[Bill_Carter]

Good post Scott. Obviously I have more homework to do. And as far as the ride offer is concerned, home is in Indiana, but work has taken me to Europe for a few years, hence my out of tolerance condition. I can get an FAA physical, but I haven't found an "N" tailed airplane to fly here and getting a JAR CAA is not worth the expense to me, let alone the ridiculous prices to rent. A Piper Tomahawk is 117 Euros and hour and the instructor is another 60. That is about $230.00 US currency!

However, I can stay as current as possible with books and videos along with online resources. Once I get back to the good 'ol USA then I can begin a serious quest for a nice Mooney. Until then, I will continue to keep all the book type stuff fresh in my mind and learn more about the airframe I wish to own.

For those who are not familiar with the JAR CAA, there are 7 written tests to pass vs. our one for a PPL. I have studied some for it, but they are several hundred Euro each to sit the test.

Bill

[Bennett]

Here is a suggestion.  Hire a really knowledgeable aviation broker to represent you.  There really are some out there.  I used a gentleman named Craig Vincent to represent me, and it was the best money I ever spent in aviation.  I essentially knew what I wanted; a M20J with a fairly low time engine - under 500 hrs since major overhaul, an airplane that was flown frequently, full logs back to the date of manufacture, and maintenance by a respected Mooney Service Center. I did not care about upholstery or paint as I was planing to fully customize the airplane to my specifications, but I wanted speed brakes, a decent autopilot, and most of the generally installed mods. It is true that this is more expensive to do all the upgrades yourself, than to buy an airplane that was brought up to date, and is acceptable to the buyer, but I knew exactly what I wanted.  Between Craig and I we reviewed public ads, and dealer ads, over a three month period. Craig spent a great deal of time on the telephone interviewing private owners and dealers, and we narrowed our list of candidates to about four aircraft. We finally chose a airplane that met my criteria, and had it flown to LASAR (Lake Aero Styling and Repair) for an initial examination at my sole expense.  While LASAR did not do this aircraft's annuals, they knew the owner and provided parts and mods to him and his mechanics. This proved to be more than a surface examination, and once Craig and I agreed that this aircraft had great potential, and upon LASAR's initial condition appraisal, I authorized, again at my sole expense, and with the owner's permission, to have a very intensive inspection made.  This revealed some surface corrosion on the roll cage, and the repairs done correctly would cost a good deal of money. Also there were about 17 pages of various squawks, some minor, and some of concern. Craig, as my representative, negotiated with the owner, and the ultimate selling price was reduced by about $30,000 from the initial asking price. I could never have done such an effective negotiation myself.  Craig also ran a title search and found that a now defunct bank had never cleared their (loan) lien on the aircraft. It took him a couple of days to run down the successor bank, have their staff check the old records, and remove the lien.  Craig then acted as a conduit for an escrow to transmit my funds to the seller (I paid cash), and then file all the necessary paperwork.  Obviously Craig's work more than paid for itself.  

 

If you are curious, I had LASAR clear all squawks, and more, to the extent that I suggested that LASAR produce a sticker reading: "ReManufactured by LASAR". A whole new interior was created by Aviation Designs, the aircraft was painted by ArtCraft, and a new panel was built by Executive Aircraft Maintenance.  I now have an aircraft that could pass for a factory new M20J, if Mooney still manufactured airplanes, and I did do at less than a quarter of what Mooney would have to charge for a new one. 

 

Good luck with your hunt for your future airplane. 

[carusoam]

Or visit all American aircraft online to get a feal for the market and pricing for all things Mooney...

Best regards,

-a-

No, I don't have a relationship other than I bought something there....once.

[KSMooniac]

Bennett's J (and Craig's, site proprietor as well as jezzie's) represent the extreme end of modernizing an older plane and are the epitome of what can be done with one IMO.  Check out their picture galleries, but have a drool-rag ready to protect your keyboard!  I'm sure all of them would admit what they did makes no financial sense in that they can't recoup the costs of the refurbishment/upgrade, but they knew what they wanted and will enjoy their planes for many, many years and that is certainly enough justification IMO.  (I'm slowly going down the same road myself)

 

I think since you're "stuck" in Europe, it makes more sense to save money, study materials, and do your research so you can be ready to pounce on a good plane when you're ready to buy.  It seems the market will continue to be a buyer's market for the foreseeable future, so no rush from that standpoint.  I dropped out of GA for almost 5 years before I bought my J because I got fed up with the club scene and lack of good rentals in my market, so I know how you feel.  I got a BFR and medical about 2 weeks before I took my plane to TX for a pre-buy inspection, and closed a week or so after that.  I still have no regrets!

[Bennett]

Scott is absolutely right about no expectations of recovering costs for a full "remanufacture", but sometimes an esthetic is the most important consideration.  In contrast with some who have chosen to follow this pathway, I do not expect to fly her long enough to reasonably amortize the costs involved.  I'm 78 now, and I will "hang up the keys" for the Mooney, at least, when I am 80.  Still can pass my aviation physicals, but age just creeps up on you, and I think it prudent to quit "winners" after more than thirty years of accident (and incident) free flying.  Still toying with the idea of buying an Ercoupe (LSA version),  to keep in a hangar out in the boonies, and just fly her locally, strictly VFR, just to keep a hand in flying in my 80s.  A good friend, and A&P, of about my age is willing to maintain her for the consideration of flying her occasionally. A couple of old fogies with many thousands of hours between us just flying low and slow in a simple airplane for the pure pleasure of it has a certain attraction, but not until I have taken my J back across the country a few more times, and then back to the British West Indies, and then to  revisit still more places in the Caribbean. 

[Bill_Carter]

Haha, yes it would be great, Bennett, to travel the path you did. I will have to see where I am at when I get to that point. It is indeed my plan to write a check and not finance, so that may help in the sale price.

Truth be known, what I really have wanted is a 252TSE, but unless something changes, which is a possibility, they are out of my price range. I always wanted to fly high. So, I will aim a little lower for now and be satisfied with where I am at.

Yes Scott, "stuck" is a profound verb that reflects my mindset about being displaced from home. Sure, Europe is great in many aspects, but it does get old and it just ain't home!

I've been curious about the pre-buy inspections as well. Do most owners let you or someone else or even themselves, fly the plane to your friendly neighborhood Mooney shop for the inspections? Wow, my ignorance shines here having never purchased a plane before.

I just recalled too, my old flight instructor owns a J back home. I will have to hit him up for a ride when I get back!

Bill

[jlunseth]

Join MAPA which gives you a subscription to the MAPA Log magazine, and then read the regular articles on valuation of Mooney aircraft. Once you get one of the charts in the magazine for your class of Mooney, you can run the numbers yourself to get an idea of value.

[Bill_Carter]

Join MAPA which gives you a subscription to the MAPA Log magazine, and then read the regular articles on valuation of Mooney aircraft. Once you get one of the charts in the magazine for your class of Mooney, you can run the numbers yourself to get an idea of value.

I do plan on this. I did subscribe to The Mooney Flyer, it is free of course, but seems awesome nevertheless.

[NotarPilot]

All I can say is read and learn as much as you can about Mooneys.  I spent A LOT of time reading and looking at Mooneys for sale before I found one I liked.  I bought mine for over10k less than it's original asking price.  Remember, it's a buyer's market right now.  I can't think of a better time to buy an airplane, in recent history, other than now.  

 

I may offend some people here, but I think the J model might be the best model ever offered when you consider speed, economy and value (Assuming you care how much fuel you burn).  I have a friend looking at buying an airplane and he said after doing research on Mooneys the J seems like it makes the most sense.  

 

I agree with everything MooneyMite and others have said but I slightly disagree with some other posts regarding airframe total time being a factor.  I wouldn't hesitate about planes with a lot of hours.  Mooneys are well built.  I fly a helicopter at work with over 12,000 hours on it.  I would steer away from a 30 yr old plane with low hours as it shows the plane probably didn't fly much and that's not good if the engine is still the original engine.

 

And as KSMooniac said, if you're serious, get with someone on the forum to take you for a ride.  FlyDave was kind enough to take me up in his Mooney when I was still deciding if the Mooney was right for me.  Today we are good friends and he actually helped fly my plane back across the country with me from NC to CA.

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you have any questions about Mooney ownership.

[KSMooniac]

Sellers are of course variable, but any one that has a plane you really want should have no objections to having a PPI done at a shop of your choosing, with you covering all expenses of course of taking the plane there.  If they won't, then they're not serious about selling, or have something to hide IMO.  Flying it up to 2-3 hours away is not unreasonable IMO.  I'd venture a guess that any Mooney is within 3 hours of a great Mooney shop... when the time comes and you narrow down your finalists you can get recommendations here about where to take it.

 

Some planes that are more of a known quantity (ie owned by members here, maintained by recognized shops) I would buy nearly sight-unseen.  Parker's 252 is one such example that is for sale now.

[BigTex]

I thought about purchasing a J Model but I couldn't figure out how to retrofit it with a manual gear so I decided to upgrade to my C Model.

[DrBill]

Here's my take on price,  unless the ad says "FIRM", 10% is given, anything is possible.  I made an offer at 84% with explanation (needed to stay below X with prebuy, taxes, etc).

With a FIRM ad, I'd say 5% is the most you're going to get.  There are some, perhaps many, people who take a low offer as "insulting".  I've always been a business man and if I think there is reason to make a low ball offer, e.g on market for a year or more, then to me that's BUSINESS, not personal (e.g. Godfather... "That's busness Sonny")  Some people will not make a counter offer if they feel they were "insulted".  Another way to look at it, it MAY not hurt to go low but all in all, I made an offer what I could afford and labeled it that way.. He did NOT have to sell to me.

BILL

[rainman]

+1 on a call to All American Aircraft. They can give you good current info on the Mooney market.

Ray

[DonMuncy]

Also +1 for calling All American. Jimmy and David are both down to earth, honest and extremely knowledgeable. 

[Bill_Carter]

OK, looked at All American's website. They seem to be the Creme De La Creme for the used Mooney. I will have to keep an eye on their site. Question, how are they at letting you know the deficiencies of the planes? Will they honestly disclose an aircraft's short comings?

[Bill_Carter]

Some planes that are more of a known quantity (ie owned by members here, maintained by recognized shops) I would buy nearly sight-unseen.  Parker's 252 is one such example that is for sale now.

Is Parker's N252BH? I looked at that one on Controller. Georgeous plane it is!

[carusoam]

Expect AAA to be straight forward. You still want to protect yourself as normal. PPI is a requirement, unless financial risk taking is part of your game.

AAA specializes in handling the top end of the Mooney market. It probably takes as much effort to properly sell a newer Acclaim as it does an older Ranger.

Ask them what it will need to meet your expectations. My needs were simple, airworthy and all equipment that is installed should be working properly or be called out specifically. Log books are generally easy to read, David at AAA can email a copy to you before you decide to visit.

As usual, AAA is working for the seller or is the seller. Your PPI should be performed by an independent source. Select an MSC for best financial protection.

Sounds expensive, but it is the best protection from accidentally purchasing FrankenPlane and becoming known as the Uboat commander.

Buying expensive machinery is as complex as buying a house. Don't accidentally get stuck, trying to save a few bucks.

Those are my thoughts, ymmv.

Good luck in your endeavors,

-a-

[jetdriven]

The most expensive Mooney's start at 50 grand. The cheapest ones are in the 120-150K range.