M20J 201 Value

[teethdoc]

Found a 201 sitting in a hangar for what I think is a good deal. 1977 M20J. 1900TT/Engine; G430W; hsi; kfc200 ap; 400h top oh; 8/10 paint and int. with good looking paint scheme.; upper 70's compressions. $65k

[jetdriven]

Its close to runout but you might get a few hundred hours from it. A field overhaul with all accessories, hoses, engine mount recert, etc can he bad for around 25K at minimum and a factory FWF with the roller cam engine is closer to 35 grand.

[gregwatts]

Negotiate hard on that!

[teethdoc]

I was not really looking, this one just found me. It needs to be a great deal for me to lay out that kind of cash so close to tbo.

[KSMooniac]

If you like the cosmetics, I'd say that is potentially a great deal.  Search up some recent threads on here about buying runouts and you'll find a lot of us would rather have a well-running engine with a lot of hours (and priced accordingly!) and then plan for an O/H or replacement according to our schedule and specs, rather than buying some unknown recent O/H that might have cut corners to save money before putting it on the market.  At 1900 TT over 36 years, it may crater tomorrow or it may run another few hundred hours.  It might be worth the gamble at that price if everything else it great.  You can always fix an engine, but fixing corrosion or damage is a lot more difficult!

[skeptic]

This might be a pretty good deal if the airframe and avionics are in good shape.  You should definitely check for corrosion and fuel leaks.  I would also give the KFC-200 a thorough check-out.......autopilot repairs can be very expensive.  And be sure to evaluate the need for a prop overhaul.

[teethdoc]

We settled on $58k. it's getting a thorough pre-buy next week.

[nels]

Man, that was quick!!

[M016576]

58K for a J... Wow! Congrats!

[aaronk25]

Great another mooney owner! What is everyone talking about when they say the engine is gonna "crater" or "might make it a few hindered hours? Isn't it true that the only things that typically go out on these engines is the cam a cylinder (valves, head cracks or general cylinder barrel wear/cracks)?

I wouldn't count needing to change a cylinder as a indicator to time to overhaul. Cylinders are bolt on accessories. If its not making metal, and oil analysis is good and no abnormal out of balence vibrations, why not keep running it?

There's lots of engines, that run at 75% power for thousands of hours. Marine gas generators are one, I've seen 8,000 hours without a rebuild.

I mean what else really goes bad inside the case if run regularly and with frequent oil changes?

[Hank]

Read the forums. Cases crack, pistons seize, rods break, seals blow, etc. Rings crack, case bolts break, sometimes cylinders break in flight. Other assorted bad events. Valves burn or break. I read about one poor soul who had two cylinders break in half in flight, not good for the pistons, rods, cam or the pilot's blood pressure. The good news is that these uncommon events can happen to any of us at any time and are not necessarily time-driven events. :-)

[jetdriven]

Great another mooney owner! What is everyone talking about when they say the engine is gonna "crater" or "might make it a few hindered hours? Isn't it true that the only things that typically go out on these engines is the cam a cylinder (valves, head cracks or general cylinder barrel wear/cracks)?

I wouldn't count needing to change a cylinder as a indicator to time to overhaul. Cylinders are bolt on accessories. If its not making metal, and oil analysis is good and no abnormal out of balence vibrations, why not keep running it?

There's lots of engines, that run at 75% power for thousands of hours. Marine gas generators are one, I've seen 8,000 hours without a rebuild.

I mean what else really goes bad inside the case if run regularly and with frequent oil changes?

 

I would venture that either a cylinder or two goes bad, the case cracks, or the cam spalls and starts making metal. If the engine was overhauled previously with rebuilt cylinders (unknown time) then a head-barrel separation is a possibility.   An IO-360 that has not flown frequently (minimum every two weeks for the past 3 years or so) is a good candidate for a cam failure event. It happened to us and about 5 or 6 other Mooney owners in the past year alone.  However, 58 grand is a dead giveaway price and for that, put gas in it and run it until it shows symptoms of going bad.  Even with a new engine, you are still "all in" at less than a hundred grand. Which is not a bad place to be for a Mooney 201 with a fresh engine.

 

We paid a little more than that for ours two years ago, and its a 1977 with no Garmin 430 or KFC autopilot. It appears the market has gone down from then.  You are getting a M20J for the M20F price.

[aaronk25]

So just curious but if the case doesn't crack, cam doesn't start making metal and a cylinder doesn't go bad? How long would you run the engine? 2400 hours 3000 hours?

[N601RX]

This apear to still have the original factory engine other than the top overhaul. Be sure all the old Lycoming AD's have been complied with.

[jetdriven]

Until the sooner of:

1. You don't trust it.

2. It starts breaking down often, or requires an ever increasing maintenance budget

3. It fails to conform to its Type Certificate or is not in airworthy condition.

[M016576]

So just curious but if the case doesn't crack, cam doesn't start making metal and a cylinder doesn't go bad? How long would you run the engine? 2400 hours 3000 hours?

I'd run it until the motor told me to stop (ie- starts making metal, compressions drop off, an EGT or CHT spike or associated "morning sickness").

[aviatoreb]

I'd run it until the motor told me to stop (ie- starts making metal, compressions drop off, an EGT or CHT spike or associated "morning sickness").

Isn't making metal a sign that there is something bad going bad with your lowers like the cam that can only be addressed by a major, but a bad compression on a cylinder, a bad EGT or even a CHT spike, can't those all perhaps be a sign of just a bad cylinder, maybe even a single bad cylinder?  Depending then, maybe just a new cylinder or cylinder overhaul could be an option, maybe even a single cylinder depending.

[aaronk25]

Isn't making metal a sign that there is something bad going bad with your lowers like the cam that can only be addressed by a major, but a bad compression on a cylinder, a bad EGT or even a CHT spike, can't those all perhaps be a sign of just a bad cylinder, maybe even a single bad cylinder? Depending then, maybe just a new cylinder or cylinder overhaul could be an option, maybe even a single cylinder depending.

Precisely what I was getting at. If you have a motor with 2200 hours lets say that has a good oil analysts and isn't making metal why not just fix the cylinder? My point is, except for the situation where the engine starts eating a cam, I think we're (at the factory and mechanics recommendation) retiring perfectly functioning proven engines to early because of "feeling" or a completly unrelated event.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard a mechanic say well your at 2000 hours and the engine will let you know when it "time" and sure enough it pukes a cylinder and then the owner spends 25k -40k for a overhaul, all when all it needed was a cylinder.

Mike Busch said when he last overhauled his engines he found that all the gear in the case was at or above service limits.

Ed Collins, inventor of cam guard told me on this fourm that he wouldn't overhaul a healthly engine until 3500 hrs.

[KSMooniac]

I think with the modern (or old, re-discovered) operational knowledge in your brain and a good engine monitor, there is no reason you couldn't or shouldn't fly to 2500 or 3000 hours, and it do it safely.

[M016576]

Isn't making metal a sign that there is something bad going bad with your lowers like the cam that can only be addressed by a major, but a bad compression on a cylinder, a bad EGT or even a CHT spike, can't those all perhaps be a sign of just a bad cylinder, maybe even a single bad cylinder?  Depending then, maybe just a new cylinder or cylinder overhaul could be an option, maybe even a single cylinder depending.

Yep! I didn't say I'd major overhaul it for a bad cylinder (or signs of one), but a single bad jug would be a great time to pull it and scope some of the bottom... If all looks good, could easily replace the jug and keep on truckin' (probably for another 1000 hrs)