Missing Logbooks

[carusoam]

I think "disappointed" wouldn't cover the feeling of "the shop lost your log book"

-a-

[Alan Fox]

I think "disappointed" wouldn't cover the feeling of "the shop lost your log book"

-a-

It doesnt , especially when you have a 15 year relationship with the shop and the people are your friends.....I still am friends with the people but that shop has not worked on any of my aircraft in 5 years.....

[jnisley]

My missing logbook story goes something like this, Shop goes bankrupt..... owner and wife go through bitter divorce....he says she has my logbooks....she says he has them....no one knows where they're at..she says he broke into her house which is his house also and stole them ...the judge says no one can touch them until the bankruptcy and divorce is settled and on and on..........almost six years later, nothing, no clue how to make contact (phone disconnected) or find out where he lives...grrrrrrrr..... I dread to even think about ever selling the plane even though I was able to reconstruct the last 10 years/1000+ hours. My reconstructed logbook is in a fire proof safe, my IA only sees copies.

[Lionudakis]

Yikes what a mess! Just a question / opinion for all. If every page of each logbook to day 1, tag, form etc is copied, as I did, with a DSLR high res camera (Even better than scanning), so it can be blown up to see even the details of the signatures, and the logs are lost or missing. Wouldn't a printout of what's been saved be sufficient to maintain the value? Yes it's not original paper, but it's as good as and would leave no unknowns, would this still affect the value to some ?

[carusoam]

It's the history, not the paper itself. Definitely good to keep a copy in the event total weirdness occurs...

We'll all go through some unexpected days sooner or later.

Let's hope for later....

-a-

[jetdriven]

Yikes what a mess! Just a question / opinion for all. If every page of each logbook to day 1, tag, form etc is copied, as I did, with a DSLR high res camera (Even better than scanning), so it can be blown up to see even the details of the signatures, and the logs are lost or missing. Wouldn't a printout of what's been saved be sufficient to maintain the value? Yes it's not original paper, but it's as good as and would leave no unknowns, would this still affect the value to some ?

100% agree. Make copies of eveything and keep then in a safe deposit box of fireproof safe. Our logs only leave th safe to get a new sticker, or to get the annual signed off. Otherwise, they are locked up at our 3rd partner's house.

[PTK]

Original logs are documents that directly affect the value of the airplane for obvious reasons. As such they are valuables that deserve and need to be safeguarded. Recreated logs are not original. There is absolutely no good excuse that the originals should go missing. None that I can see. They permanently reside in a bank safe deposit box and are only taken out to be ammended and to scan new pages into computer. They are never left unattended with anyone or any shop! If they want to see them they get a flash drive. The market punishes "missing original logs" accordingly, as it should.

[Dleggat]

I hate to resurrect old topics, but I'm looking into my first mooney purchase and need some advice/input, so here goes-

I've got my eye on a 61 m20b. Nice avionics setup, Garmin 430, Sandel HSI, MX-20 MFD, digital engine monitoring.... a little over 4000TTAF and 760SMOH. There was a prop strike in 2007, which turned into a prop replacement and full lycoming tear down and inspection. I felt like I was getting a good deal at $31k, until a logbook review showed about 15 years missing out of the airframe logbook. There seems to be proof of annuals during that timeframe by looking at the engine log, just not in the airframe log. I'm not sure why it was annotated in the engine book, and not the airframe book, but by the bank standards that's considered incomplete logs and they dropped the appraisal value by $13k from the original $39k. Was told to walk away by the bank if the selling price didn't drop. Should I walk away completely? Try and negotiate for a lower price? Go to another bank? I feel like the $13k drop is a bit much, but this is my first rodeo and haven't dealt with this before. I want the plane, but not bad enough to get trapped down the line trying to sell this thing. Any and all input is appreciated....

[cliffy]

If you had to resell 6 months after you buy it you might get 20K   Your choice on what you want to spend for it. 

[1964-M20E]

Did you negotiate to $31k from $39k knowing the missing log book times or was it found after?

I’d go back to the guy and ask him to go to $27 or $28k not the $26k the bank wants but an acceptable discount for the missing logs if they were discovered during the inspection.

 

I did that on my first plane we found a few things during the pre-buy so I asked for another couple of thousand off even though we had agreed on a price and said we would not revisit the price.

[chrisk]

I hate to resurrect old topics, but I'm looking into my first mooney purchase and need some advice/input, so here goes-

I've got my eye on a 61 m20b. Nice avionics setup, Garmin 430, Sandel HSI, MX-20 MFD, digital engine monitoring.... a little over 4000TTAF and 760SMOH. There was a prop strike in 2007, which turned into a prop replacement and full lycoming tear down and inspection. I felt like I was getting a good deal at $31k, until a logbook review showed about 15 years missing out of the airframe logbook. There seems to be proof of annuals during that timeframe by looking at the engine log, just not in the airframe log. I'm not sure why it was annotated in the engine book, and not the airframe book, but by the bank standards that's considered incomplete logs and they dropped the appraisal value by $13k from the original $39k. Was told to walk away by the bank if the selling price didn't drop. Should I walk away completely? Try and negotiate for a lower price? Go to another bank? I feel like the $13k drop is a bit much, but this is my first rodeo and haven't dealt with this before. I want the plane, but not bad enough to get trapped down the line trying to sell this thing. Any and all input is appreciated....

 

I would deliver the bank appraisal to the owner and ask what he can do.  And I would further tell him the bank suggested that you walk away.   Some will cut the price to be done with the deal.  Others will demand their price no matter what.

 

Also consider the big picture.  Where I am, the cost to hanger, insure, and annual any plane runs between $7500 to $10,000 per year.   In other words, if you really like the plane, and it is equipped exactly as you wish, I wouldn't be overly concerned with a valuation difference of opinion in the $5K range or less.  On the other hand, if the missing logs are recent, it may take you an extra year to sell the plane.  --And if it takes you an extra year to sell the plane, you spent $10K.

 

So, what years are missing in the logs? If the logs are from early in the planes history, I would not be overly concerned.  Typically new planes are insured and if involved in an accident, they would be repaired properly.   And if damage was substantial, there would be other FAA records. 

 

And slightly related:  I am always amazed at the value some folks place on logs.  You hear them spout "I would never buy a plane with missing logs!"  instead, they go buy an experimental built by whoever to whatever standard.   If you have the logs for the last 30 years and 2500 or 3000 hours, do you really think additional logs will give you useful info?

[orionflt]

the funny thing about logs are what is really required by the FAA, all you need is the last annual for the airframe, engine and prop plus the AD list showing all AD's have been complied with and all the 337's for the aircraft. in all actuality that will give you a good history of the aircraft minus minor damage and trending type info. I like seeing complete log books because it allows you to get a bigger picture of how the aircraft was treated over its life, what it won't tell you is the things that were not documented whether it was done maliciously or just by a mechanic who was not very thorough. As stated before, missing older logbooks is not as much of an issue as missing recent logs.

 

Brian    

[carusoam]

The problem with missing log books are some go missing intentionally...

At each annual the owner needs to demonstrate that the plane is air-worthy. The log books are the paper evidence of the work that has been completed to demonstrate AWness. Any equipment that has been added or removed needs to be accounted for. They are in that document.

As a buyer it is your responsibility to identify whether you are being taken or the logs went missing accidentally...

If you are in the aviation business, you already know how to handle this type of risk...

If you are a private pilot that just wants to fly a plane and not deal with a legal can of worms, move on.

If you were to decide to take on the risk... You essentially want to know the details of each piece of equipment that has been added or removed from the plane during it's life. What is in the plane and what it's documented history is...

This would require a ton of serial number checking on things where a serial number may not be available.

A PPI is the process to use when purchasing a plane.

The pre-Purchase Inspection is an expensive step that would identify that the logs are missing.

There is a premium paid for

- maintenance done by MSCs

- keeping the plane indoors

There is a discount for

- run-out engine

- crusty looking paint

- prop that has an annual AD to take care of

There is negotiation for

- ADs that need to be complied with

Having complete logs is expected.

Know what it takes to rebuild the missing logs and replace everything that can't be accounted for...

Know that all people selling airplanes are not created equally. Some don't seem to care about your wallet (or you) as much as you might.

Focus on getting an air worthy plane, then work on getting it for the lowest price...a good PPI is a must.

Best regards,

-a-

[urbanti]

My attitude towards missing logbooks on relatively inexpensive pre-1970s airplanes has changed over the years.

I used to be one of those "I would never buy a plane with missing logbooks" guys. I also used to be one of those "I would never buy a plane that had a gear up" guys.

But when you're looking at 1960's airplanes selling for $40k or less, they're all gonna have some combination of issues: missing some logbooks; weird chain of title records; damage history; undocumented repairs or mods; long-term disuse; corrosion; runout engines; crappy paint; sketchy or pencil-whipped annuals; laughably implausible W&B data; dishonest or curmudgeonly owners, etc etc.

In the end, my highest priority was finding a nice-flying plane that had great recent maintenance history at a well-known MSC.

YMMV

Tim

[rbridges]

I hate to resurrect old topics, but I'm looking into my first mooney purchase and need some advice/input, so here goes-

I've got my eye on a 61 m20b. Nice avionics setup, Garmin 430, Sandel HSI, MX-20 MFD, digital engine monitoring.... a little over 4000TTAF and 760SMOH. There was a prop strike in 2007, which turned into a prop replacement and full lycoming tear down and inspection. I felt like I was getting a good deal at $31k, until a logbook review showed about 15 years missing out of the airframe logbook. There seems to be proof of annuals during that timeframe by looking at the engine log, just not in the airframe log. I'm not sure why it was annotated in the engine book, and not the airframe book, but by the bank standards that's considered incomplete logs and they dropped the appraisal value by $13k from the original $39k. Was told to walk away by the bank if the selling price didn't drop. Should I walk away completely? Try and negotiate for a lower price? Go to another bank? I feel like the $13k drop is a bit much, but this is my first rodeo and haven't dealt with this before. I want the plane, but not bad enough to get trapped down the line trying to sell this thing. Any and all input is appreciated....

 

 

Depends on which year logs are missing and how long you think you will keep the plane.  If you keep it for a year or two and have to sell it for a loss, it may not be worth it.  Keep it for ten years, and it may not seem so bad.  Also, the next potential owner may factor in that you've owned it for ten years and have completed logs for that time frame.

 

Check to see if all the AD's are addressed.  I would bounce it off the seller and see what he says.

[Dleggat]

Logbooks get lost ....That is usually the case......On my last mooney , the shop lost the logbook...

Funny I run into you on the forum, but I'm trying to buy N74795, and I assume you're the last owner? it doesn't look like there is a whole book missing, just 87-05 in airframe book 2. Think you could shed some light on that?