Landing flap setting for "normal" landings in a J

[Ftrdave]

All

Apologies upfront if this is going over old territory. I'm new to the forum (bought my first Mooney back in April '25) and I have tried to find a thread for this topic, but could not. Feel free to point me in another direction...

While following the thread regarding raising the flaps or gear first on a go-around, a few folks commented that they use the takeoff flap setting for landings (a few comments on liking the pitch attitude of the aircraft on landing as well as it being easier to land consistently). This definitely caught my interest as I am not in love with the feel of the aircraft with full flaps down. I also have struggled to consistently land the aircraft well (I know, that's a highly subjective standard). Bottomline, I cannot find a discussion on landing with other than full flaps in the POH or anywhere else. Any insight on the technique used and whether this is an acceptable practice would be appreciated.

Best

Dave

[N201MKTurbo]

If we don’t use full flaps for landing, what are they for?

I have landed a Mooney in every flap position imaginable. The plane can be landed with any flap position. 
 

I think it lands better with full flaps in all circumstances. Some will offer a different opinion.

The less flaps, the more nose up pitch is required.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, Ftrdave said:

This definitely caught my interest as I am not in love with the feel of the aircraft with full flaps down

You have to land with “full flaps”, especially if you are looking for performance landing (some call these “normal landing”, some call them “short landing”) 

If runway is long, I tend to land without flaps or with takeoff flaps in gusty/windy conditions, night, instrument, airlines airport…it’s more a convenience rather than impossible, it also makes go-around trivial with power (again not impossible to go-around from full flaps neither)

The use of flaps for landing in most small FAR23 aircraft falls under “Flaps: As required”, so everything is acceptable as long as you have your own justification, I don’t think POH are that prescriptive? 

As they are electric, you have to be comfortable landing without flaps...

Edited September 2 by Ibra

[PeterRus]

43 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If we don’t use full flaps for landing, what are they for?

I have landed a Mooney in every flap position imaginable. The plane can be landed with any flap position. 
 

I think it lands better with full flaps in all circumstances. Some will offer a different opinion.

The less flaps, the more nose up pitch is required.

What's your power with full flaps in a J?

[N201MKTurbo]

18 minutes ago, PeterRus said:

What's your power with full flaps in a J?

I usually pull the power to idle on short final. If I’m fast or high I will go to idle sooner.

[PeterRus]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I usually pull the power to idle on short final. If I’m fast or high I will go to idle sooner.

Are you on the standard glide slope? (according to VASI/PAPI/ILS)

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The less flaps, the more nose up pitch is required.

A little confused by this statement.  I like more flaps because the nose pitches down; better sight angle, doesn't feel like you're digging out of a hole when you're slower.  When is more nose up pitch required?  In the flare?  I don't think I even think about control forces in the flare; however I would expect opposite of what you said.  ?? 

[N201MKTurbo]

14 minutes ago, PeterRus said:

Are you on the standard glide slope? (according to VASI/PAPI/ILS)

If I’m flying a glideslope, I have gear down, full flaps, ~16” MP. When I break out, I will evaluate my position to the runway and decide when to pull the power. Depending on the wind, I can usually pull the power at DH. Carrying power into the flare will increase your landing distance a lot. Even having your idle speed set too high will increase your landing distance a lot. 
 

If you are flying the GS at 90 KTS, you are carrying 20 extra KTS when you break out. I usually throttle back to the top of the yellow arc on the tach and slow down to 70 and then go to idle when in a good position. If you keep 90 KTS to the flare, you will use a lot of runway, and spend a lot on tires and brakes. It is a good landing when you have to power up to make it to a turnoff.

I hope I got all this right. I do it all automatically and don’t think about it that much.

[N201MKTurbo]

14 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

A little confused by this statement.  I like more flaps because the nose pitches down; better sight angle, doesn't feel like you're digging out of a hole when you're slower.  When is more nose up pitch required?  In the flare?  I don't think I even think about control forces in the flare; however I would expect opposite of what you said.  ?? 

I think we are saying the same thing. More flaps takes a lower nose, less flaps has the nose higher when you land.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Ftrdave said:

. . . a few folks commented that they use the takeoff flap setting for landings . . . I cannot find a discussion on landing with other than full flaps in the POH or anywhere else. Any insight on the technique used and whether this is an acceptable practice would be appreciated.

I enter the pattern with Takeoff Flaps, and adjust them on final along with elevator, trim and throttle to hit my intended point of landing. This is what my Owners Manual has to say; your POH may have a similar discussion under Normal Procedures, Landing.

This gives a bit of discussion as indicated:

2 hours ago, Ibra said:

The use of flaps for landing in most small FAR23 aircraft falls under “Flaps: As required”, so everything is acceptable as long as you have your own justification, I don’t think POH are that prescriptive? 

As they are electric, you have to be comfortable landing without flaps...

On the other hand, my C is shorter and lighter than your J. I flew a friend's 75 F a bit, and it landed much better with full flaps. Then again, the F flaps had only three selectable positions:  Up, Takeoff and Down. My own electric flaps are infinitely variable between Up and Down, and usually give them a tap or two beyond Takeoff on final.

Experiment some and see what works for you. I seem to only use full flaps to land on those rare days when the wind is totally calm.

Also practice no flap landings, and simulated engine outs. Take a CFI with you the first few times, since you're still learning your plane and how it responds to different settings.

[Paul Thomas]

Full flaps and power idle.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Ftrdave said:

All

Apologies upfront if this is going over old territory. I'm new to the forum (bought my first Mooney back in April '25) and I have tried to find a thread for this topic, but could not. Feel free to point me in another direction...

While following the thread regarding raising the flaps or gear first on a go-around, a few folks commented that they use the takeoff flap setting for landings (a few comments on liking the pitch attitude of the aircraft on landing as well as it being easier to land consistently). This definitely caught my interest as I am not in love with the feel of the aircraft with full flaps down. I also have struggled to consistently land the aircraft well (I know, that's a highly subjective standard). Bottomline, I cannot find a discussion on landing with other than full flaps in the POH or anywhere else. Any insight on the technique used and whether this is an acceptable practice would be appreciated.

Best

Dave

I’ve used all 3 settings just to be comfortable with them (my electric flaps died in the up position a couple weeks back so I got a “real” nf landing).  Personally, I like full flaps as that’s the configuration for the slowest possible touchdown and the shortest landing roll.  I agree that the to position feels a little better sometimes, I expect from a combination of the extra few knots and the different view, but you can land just as well with full flaps if you practice.

Caveat… i use to flaps on instrument approaches until landing is assured.

[exM20K]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’ve used all 3 settings just to be comfortable with them (my electric flaps died in the up position a couple weeks back so I got a “real” nf landing).  Personally, I like full flaps as that’s the configuration for the slowest possible touchdown and the shortest landing roll.  I agree that the to position feels a little better sometimes, I expect from a combination of the extra few knots and the different view, but you can land just as well with full flaps if you practice.

Caveat… i use to flaps on instrument approaches until landing is assured.

This is good to practicen the sight picture and perceived speed/descent rate can be very different.. Another consideration is that if one has had ice on the airframe, flaps are limited to T/O in the long body (and maybe mid body) Mooney’s. The tail is a much more efficient ice collector than is the wing, full flaps blank the tail from some of the airflow past the wing, and a  tail stall on short final is likely to be a non-survivable lawn-dart terminal event.

-dan

[PT20J]

Why use flaps at all? What do flaps do? 

Flaps do three things: First, flaps add drag allowing for a steeper approach with power, and using power during an approach aids controllability by providing the ability to control airspeed and descent angle/rate independently. Second, flaps reduce the deck angle allowing better visibility over the nose. And, third (and most importantly) flaps reduce the stall speed allowing for slower and thus shorter landings. 

So, if flaps do all these good things, why not use all you can get? Are Mooneys easlier to land with partial flap settings? And, are Mooneys so difficult to land that we need to resort to lesser flap settings to make it easier? Judging by the fact that landing Mooneys seems to be a perennial topic of discussion, it appears that many have issues with landing these airplanes.

Let's define a good landing as on centerline, with no sideways drift, on the main wheels first. We might further add touching down within say 100 feet of your aim point. Most every competent pilot can do that. But what I think everyone is really after is a soft touchdown which can be more difficult in a Mooney than lesser aircraft. Why? I think there are a number of reasons:

1. When you get a Mooney slowed down to 1.3Vso you are deeper in the region of reverse command (aka backside of the power curve) than many light aircraft and the airspeed is thus unstable in the sense that if it starts to get slow, it wants to get even slower. So, you have use the throttle and elevators more to keep it on profile.

2. Mooneys have a lot of gadgets in the elevator controls. M20Js and earlier have trim assist bungees and later models have a down spring interconnected with the trim and a bob weight. These gadgets add an unnatural control force at low speeds because the spring tension is constant where the elevator forces without the springs would decrease as the airplane slowed.

3. The laminar flow wing has the spar pretty far aft and so the landing gear, which is attached to the spar, is located farther aft of the CG than most other similar aircraft. This is why people sometimes call the airplane nose heavy. But this main gear position has an undesirable effect upon touchdown. At the instant the main wheels touch down, the pivot point shifts from the CG to the main wheels which shortens the moment arm to the tail. This produces a pitch down moment and the tendency to "bang" the nosewheel down harder than intended.

4. The rubber puck suspension system is pretty stiff and not very forgiving if you drop it in on landing even a little bit.

Some of these negative aspects can be improved by landing with less flaps. The landing speed is higher so you will be less deep into the region of reverse command. The pitch angle is higher so the flare maneuver does not take as much rotation and is more tolerant of mistiming. 

But, wouldn't it be better to learn how to land the airplane correctly than to use the "crutch" of using less flaps just to make it easier? It's not that hard. The biggest mistakes I see (and make myself) are not looking far enough down the runway to properly judge height, flaring too high (risks running out of energy and dropping it in) or too low (scoots along in ground effect until it stalls and drops in) and not using a touch of power when it seems it is going to drop in. My best landings are with the power coming to idle just before touchdown and the elevators still coming back as it touches down. 

 

[Slick Nick]

I land my J full flaps about 90% of the time. It lands better, and it’s easier on tires and brakes. I still practice other flap configurations,  but “normal ops” is to land full flap. There’s not many good reasons not to, as skip pointed out. 

[midlifeflyer]

Full flaps for me too unless I’m practicing landing without them. 

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

But, wouldn't it be better to learn how to land the airplane correctly than to use the "crutch" of using less flaps just to make it easier?

Love the post but had to chuckle at this.  At the primary student pilot level, flaps are often a landing “crutch”, with students unable to control landing speed without them.

[Pinecone]

And don't forget the CB reason to land full flaps.

Slower touchdown speed means less tire wear so they last longer.

 

[Hank]

43 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

And don't forget the CB reason to land full flaps.

Slower touchdown speed means less tire wear so they last longer.

I almost never land with full flaps. And will soon replace my main tires, installed in 2012. Not sure I need to worry about making them last longer . . .

[76Srat]

There are two words to solve all of this:  Airspeed.  Airspeed.  

Oh, and a third word goes with those two quite nicely:  Airspeed.

 

 

[Ftrdave]

Thank you to all for the great and thoughtful replies. As a pilot with 4000 hours in tactical fighter jets but barely 40 hours in single engine prop planes, I feel like a shiny new penny when flying my J. I'm absorbing every bit of knowledge and wisdom I can get my hands on regarding everything I never knew about flying "low and slow." Here are my big takeaways:

1. Absolutely have to be proficient in landing the aircraft in every flap configuration. Totally makes sense given all the reasons stated....and exactly what we did in fighters...

2. Choose the correct flap configuration for the conditions. This is where my experience falls short as Tomcats, Hornets and Super Hornets are always landed with the same flap setting (unless you have an emergency). I appreciate the discussion provided that lays out reasons for when to use each flap setting.

3. I need go slow flight and stall the aircraft in every configuration (not just full flap) so that I can document Vso for each and calculate 1.3Vso for each.

4. Have already learned the hard way that you have to fly this thing on-speed or just take it around!

Thanks again for the discussion. If any of you are ever near KJNX, please stop by and visit (I'm the airport director)!

Dave

[IFLYIFR]

Ftrdave, you might want to read “Why Can’t We Land” by Wayne Fisher. The article is specific to Mooneys. It is not explicitly about flaps but more focused on 1.3xVso approach speed and 1.2xVso threshold crossing speed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Will.iam]

2 hours ago, Ftrdave said:

Thank you to all for the great and thoughtful replies. As a pilot with 4000 hours in tactical fighter jets but barely 40 hours in single engine prop planes, I feel like a shiny new penny when flying my J. I'm absorbing every bit of knowledge and wisdom I can get my hands on regarding everything I never knew about flying "low and slow." Here are my big takeaways:

1. Absolutely have to be proficient in landing the aircraft in every flap configuration. Totally makes sense given all the reasons stated....and exactly what we did in fighters...

2. Choose the correct flap configuration for the conditions. This is where my experience falls short as Tomcats, Hornets and Super Hornets are always landed with the same flap setting (unless you have an emergency). I appreciate the discussion provided that lays out reasons for when to use each flap setting.

3. I need go slow flight and stall the aircraft in every configuration (not just full flap) so that I can document Vso for each and calculate 1.3Vso for each.

4. Have already learned the hard way that you have to fly this thing on-speed or just take it around!

Thanks again for the discussion. If any of you are ever near KJNX, please stop by and visit (I'm the airport director)!

Dave

Instead of marking where each stall is on different flap settings you might want to go up and see the relationship of stall warning horn to when you actually stall. My stall warning horn goes off about 3 to 4 knots before my wing stalls. This was great confidence and confirmation that i was landing( or trying to land) too fast as i never heard it go off and in the jet world you never do want to hear the stall warning. After a few dozen landings i got to where the stall horn goes off right before i touch down and that drastically cut down on my floating down the runway, just make sure you are very close to the ground when it happens and as you are bring up the nose to hold your altitude above the runway as the airspeed bleeds off in effect lowering your mains as you slow as they are behind the cg and thus you touch down with zero downward sink and only the slow pivoting force around the cg to make a smooth landing. Having a LHS (landing height system) also re confirms your site picture as i flare and hold the airplane with the LHS saying one one one until the mains touch. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/2/2025 at 12:15 PM, Ftrdave said:

All

Apologies upfront if this is going over old territory. I'm new to the forum (bought my first Mooney back in April '25) and I have tried to find a thread for this topic, but could not. Feel free to point me in another direction...

While following the thread regarding raising the flaps or gear first on a go-around, a few folks commented that they use the takeoff flap setting for landings (a few comments on liking the pitch attitude of the aircraft on landing as well as it being easier to land consistently). This definitely caught my interest as I am not in love with the feel of the aircraft with full flaps down. I also have struggled to consistently land the aircraft well (I know, that's a highly subjective standard). Bottomline, I cannot find a discussion on landing with other than full flaps in the POH or anywhere else. Any insight on the technique used and whether this is an acceptable practice would be appreciated.

Best

Dave

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/fd03665a-9127-4f79-a429-ee3607a81548/downloads/Wayne Fisher on Landing.pdf?ver=1619678278351