Retract Gear or Flaps First in a Go Around ?

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Ibra said:

A better comparison is raising the falps vs gear between VS0 and VS1, easily done at 4000ft 

At 90kts, the order does not matter that much, go-around at these speeds are non event. In the other hand, things are more quirky between 45kts and 70kts, this is usually associated with balked landing: the main risk is raising flaps between VS0 and VS1 which guarantee infinite drag, the aircraft won't climb even with full power.

Near VS1 under 50ft, lot of brain and precise flying is required (one has already run out of speed & altitude) 

Once past 85kts, one can do whatever they want with pitch, controls, configs...

At 45 knots, my wheels are firmly on the ground, whether taking off or landing. I'm usually landing around ~72 mph = 62-1/2 knots over the numbers, and almost never with full flaps, in a continuous deceleration towards the ground.

Then full throttle is just another takeoff--i.e., positive rate, gear up then flaps up, except it will require more down trim than a normal takeoff due to trimming nose up on final.

[Ibra]

12 minutes ago, Hank said:

and almost never with full flaps, in a continuous deceleration towards the ground.

Yes if you are landing with takeoff flaps, it's simply another takeoff where you will raise gear and then flaps...

When landing full flaps, there is the question of raising "drag flaps immediately" before gear or anything, I think this apply to some underpowered aircraft with +40deg flaps but I highly doubt this applies to Mooneys...

[Jackk]

There is a reason why industry wide “positive rate grear up”

 

and flaps gear flaps 

is a thing 

 

I’d think a Mooney would be the same 

[Ibra]

17 minutes ago, Jackk said:

There is a reason why industry wide “positive rate grear up”

I hate when I hear that in Mooney, same for “rotate”

I know it’s standard in professional flying as the pilot can’t distinguish between “rotation” and “climb”, they have an “eye height” of 50ft even when taxiing, they call rotate and V1/V2.

There is nothing wrong with,

* Accelerating single engine piston in ground effect, it’s not a jet !

* Retracting gear in ground effect without using vario > 0.

The aircraft fly by itself, there is no rotation involved and it’s easy to know that it has lift-off, one can accelerate in ground effect, once they are at sensible speeds they can retract gear or flaps.

I think drag flaps first is required in some GA (I recall Cessna with their 40deg flaps), however, retracting drag flaps at very slow speeds under VS1 near ground under 50ft lead to disasters (even in fixed gear, lot of Cirrus accidents are botched go-arounds or balked landings where pilots jumps on flaps under 60kts as they throw 310hp in front)

 

Edited Saturday at 03:44 PM by Ibra

[Yetti]

Same as take off.     Don't mess with the flow.     As I have found in a long body I don't think there is a time to land half flaps.  So you are always full flaps.  In the F I landed half flaps all the time unless I biffed the approach.

If you are going around because of a bounce you already have enough energy to fly the plane straight and level.   So add half throttle get level, side step.  Gear, Trim, power, flaps.  Adding the power will make the plane climb.  continue to trim.

If you are going around because of a fouled deck, plane, deer, car, you really have enough energy to level out with a bit of throttle. 

If you are going around because of your instructor, then you bitch him out for blowing what would be a perfect landing and follow up with the words "I hate you"

There will times to firewall everything and then just be ready to hold her down and trim.    Even the 244HP is a lot of immediate energy.    I can't imagine firewalling a 300HP.

 

[donkaye, MCFI]

The drag demonstration was too simplistic.  There are a lot more forces or reduction thereof involved in the go around that play a more important role in the decision to raise the gear first.  A mechanical engineer would be more suited to sort that out than a flight instructor.  The empirical fact remains that with the forces involved, raising the flaps first in the Mooney can have severe negative consequences, especially in the long body Mooneys.  Raising the flaps causes a significant nose up moment the control of which increases the pilot workload beyond that required by raising the gear first.  Couple that with increased p-factor and torque associated with advancing the throttle, and you're setting yourself up for possible control problems.

Mooney was smart enough to change the order to gear up first in the Acclaim.  Others can rationalize the reverse all they want at their own peril.  I will continue to teach gear first as the safest method to use when initiating a go around in a Mooney.   

[Hank]

Add Power, gear up, trim, flaps up, trim for climb. Same as every takeoff, just starting with some extra speed and altitude.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Jackk said:

There is a reason why industry wide “positive rate grear up”

 

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

I hate when I hear that in Mooney, same for “rotate”

Whether it's a go around or a touch n go, "positive rate, gear up" makes sense to me. I'm just verifying that the plane is climbing before raising the gear, so that I don't bounce the belly and prop on the runway. Did the descent stop when I added power? Am I climbing after touching, or just accelerating? A quick glance at my IVSI will confirm that it's safe to reach for the gear switch. I usually talk out loud while doing this.

[Jackk]

2 hours ago, Ibra said:

I hate when I hear that in Mooney, same for “rotate”

I know it’s standard in professional flying as the pilot can’t distinguish between “rotation” and “climb”, they have an “eye height” of 50ft even when taxiing, they call rotate and V1/V2.

There is nothing wrong with,

* Accelerating single engine piston in ground effect, it’s not a jet !

* Retracting gear in ground effect without using vario > 0.

The aircraft fly by itself, there is no rotation involved and it’s easy to know that it has lift-off, one can accelerate in ground effect, once they are at sensible speeds they can retract gear or flaps.

I think drag flaps first is required in some GA (I recall Cessna with their 40deg flaps), however, retracting drag flaps at very slow speeds under VS1 near ground under 50ft lead to disasters (even in fixed gear, lot of Cirrus accidents are botched go-arounds or balked landings where pilots jumps on flaps under 60kts as they throw 310hp in front)

 

Who said to rotate a single engine piston?

 

 I’m big fan of teaching not only is the runway left behind you useless, as it the runway left ahead of you, accelerate build energy and pitch for vx or VY as appropriate.  That’s what I do in my personal planes (one only has a A65)

 

 

 That said, positive rate and picking the best lift setting on a GA is universal, it extracts all the performance you’re going to get and unlike the jet the mooney has way less performance in a go around, I can bust 250kias single engine in the jet and have a initial climb rate at sea level on a OEI GA that beats the rate of a new Mooney, so if we want to be clean and high lift in a jet on the GA, I’d wager the piston pounder is even more so 

Edited Saturday at 06:13 PM by Jackk

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, Jackk said:

unlike the jet the mooney has way less performance in a go around

This makes accelerating in ground effect straight and level more useful in under-powered piston.

As example, in takeoff or go-around in high density, it takes ages to accelerate straight and level in ground effect, you may even need to retract gear in ground effect to get to your target climb speed. One can't simply pitch up and hope it will climb? 

For "gear up", this comes naturally on takeoff or go-around: I don't think one need to pitch for climb or and check vario like in Jets.

I know few instructors who insist on +8deg pitch (or +15deg) for go-around, immediate power, drag flaps, positive rate for gear up, clean flaps...

These techniques seems like an overkill in Mooney, we just go slowly, 1/2 power, get level, breath or trim, raise gear, full power accelerate level, raise flap...

4 hours ago, Hank said:

I'm just verifying that the plane is climbing before raising the gear

It's doable without vario?

Mooney is small, it climbs by itself during takeoff or go-aroud: if the nose climbs 20ft, the tail climbs 20ft.

In Jets, one can have aircraft nose at 50ft with wheels still on the ground, so after rotation, they check vario > 0 before raising gear.

Edited Saturday at 09:09 PM by Ibra

[Jackk]

13 minutes ago, Ibra said:

This makes accelerating in ground effect straight and level more useful in under-powered piston. As example, in takeoff or go-around in high density, it takes ages to accelerate even straight and level in ground effect, you are required to retract gear in ground effect to get to the target climb speed.

It's doable without vario?

Mooney is small, it climbs by itself during takeoff or go-aroud: if the nose climbs 20ft, the tail climbs 20ft.

In Jets, one can have aircraft nose at 50ft with wheels still on the ground, so after rotation, they check vario > 0 before raising gear.

sure 

 

as it does to go to max lift flaps and positive rate go gear up.

 

 

 Even in the jet world rotate is not a command as much as situational awareness  

[Bunti]

Here are some insights of go arounds with larger airplanes:

If you fly an Airbus 320 or a Boeing 737, during a go around, always the flaps are retracted first by one step or to a certain position. Then the gear is retracted after the positive climb is confirmed. 

With the Airbus A320, the call of the pilot flying would be "go around, flaps". Then the pilot monitoring checks the speed and retracts the flaps by one step and confirms the action. Then the pilot monitoring checks the attitude and the climb rate + rising radar altimeter and calls for "positive climb". Then the pilot flying calls for "gear up".

For example, if we land an Airbus with full extended flaps, it is a flap setting which is never be used for a takeoff. Retracting the flaps by one step brings the plane in the same configuration which may be used for a normal takeoff. 

So, retracting the flaps first brings the Airbus into a known takeoff configuration.

 My Mooney M20F manual does not say anything about go arounds. It looks like that 1967 no go arounds were flown.

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

It's doable without vario?

Mooney is small, it climbs by itself during takeoff or go-aroud: if the nose climbs 20ft, the tail climbs 20ft.

What's a vario? My Mooney has an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator, which will tell me that I'm climbing, since just pointing the nose upwards doesn't guarantee a climb (i.e., heavy weight, high DA, slow speed behind the power curve, etc.).

Before I raise the gear, I want to know that I'm getting further away from the ground and not still sinking. 

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, Bunti said:

Here are some insights of go arounds with larger airplanes:

If you fly an Airbus 320 or a Boeing 737, during a go around, always the flaps are retracted first by one step or to a certain position. Then the gear is retracted after the positive climb is confirmed. 

With the Airbus A320, the call of the pilot flying would be "go around, flaps". Then the pilot monitoring checks the speed and retracts the flaps by one step and confirms the action. Then the pilot monitoring checks the attitude and the climb rate + rising radar altimeter and calls for "positive climb". Then the pilot flying calls for "gear up".

For example, if we land an Airbus with full extended flaps, it is a flap setting which is never be used for a takeoff. Retracting the flaps by one step brings the plane in the same configuration which may be used for a normal takeoff. 

So, retracting the flaps first brings the Airbus into a known takeoff configuration.

 My Mooney M20F manual does not say anything about go arounds. It looks like that 1967 no go arounds were flown.

 

 
I thought you said large aircraft

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

What's a vario? My Mooney has an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator, which will tell me that I'm climbing, since just pointing the nose upwards doesn't guarantee a climb (i.e., heavy weight, high DA, slow speed behind the power curve, etc.).

Before I raise the gear, I want to know that I'm getting further away from the ground and not still sinking. 

 You have a IVS?!

 

Do you have a INS?

Edited Saturday at 11:49 PM by Jackk

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

What's a vario? My Mooney has an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator, which will tell me that I'm climbing, since just pointing the nose upwards doesn't guarantee a climb (i.e., heavy weight, high DA, slow speed behind the power curve, etc.).

Before I raise the gear, I want to know that I'm getting further away from the ground and not still sinking. 

Short for variometer another name for VSI, but the type used in gliders is more sensitive. An IVSI is a VSI aided by a mechanical accelerometer to reduce instrument lag.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, Jackk said:

 You have a IVS?!

 

Do you have a INS?

Affirmative.

Negative. Have WAAS GPS.

[PeteMc]

59 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Short for variometer another name for VSI, but the type used in gliders is more sensitive. An IVSI is a VSI aided by a mechanical accelerometer to reduce instrument lag.

Thanks for that.  I was just about to say that my VSI lags a bit. 

[Jackk]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Affirmative.

Negative. Have WAAS GPS.

Impressed 

 

 I have never seen one on a non transport cat aircraft 

 

 first plane I flew with one was a 747-400

 

 how does that work without inertial nav?

Edited Sunday at 01:07 AM by Jackk

[Hank]

2 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Thanks for that.  I was just about to say that my VSI lags a bit. 

They generally lag 6-7 seconds. I've had my Mooney with IVSI since 2007, I cannot go back!!

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Jackk said:

Impressed 

 I have never seen one on a non transport cat aircraft 

 first plane I flew with one was a 747-400

 how does that work without inertial nav?

It works very well, thank you. It was in the Mooney when I bought it.

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, Jackk said:

how does that work without inertial nav?

I believe there is a movable (vertically) weight rigged to a bellows of sorts.  When you climb or descend the force of vertical acceleration compresses or expands the bellows and provides an instantaneous increase/decrease of pressure vs. the delay caused by the calibrated leak in the case.

[PeteMc]

Not to steal the thread here, but... Does anyone still make an IVSI for certified GA aircraft?  I'm sure ones made for the big Boeings, etc., have a big sticker price. 

 

[Ibra]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

My Mooney has an Instantaneous Vertical Speed Indicator

That's posh  I think others answered the question on "vario" 

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

Does anyone still make an IVSI for certified GA aircraft?  I'm sure ones made for the big Boeings, etc., have a big sticker price

Finding a new analogue one would be expensive. 

I think Garmin PFD (e.g. G5, GI275) process static input and give a sort of  "instantaneous vertical speed  reading"? 

Altough their screen is too small and IVSI info is even smaller (I never look at it), it's obvious when wheels leave the ground or when Mooney is climbing, I don't have to look inside aircraft to figure it out (in Jets, the pilot can climb 50ft while his wheels are on the ground, so they want an extra confirmation).

[Ibra]

10 hours ago, Bunti said:

With the Airbus A320, the call of the pilot flying would be "go around, flaps". Then the pilot monitoring checks the speed and retracts the flaps by one step and confirms the action. Then the pilot monitoring checks the attitude and the climb rate + rising radar altimeter and calls for "positive climb". Then the pilot flying calls for "gear up".

Indeed, that's the recipe for Airbus, the big risk of using that in Mooney (or Airbus) is skipping to "check speed for retraction step by step"

I had someone who did that after bouncing while I checked him in Mooney: oh boy, what a ride ! 

Go-around did not exist in 1967  maybe, they were simple: accelerate straight and level and do what you like.

 

Edited Sunday at 08:22 AM by Ibra