201 Gear Up at KDWH

[Mooney in Oz]

This one appears to be a gear malfunction.

A well executed landing.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/535733

 

[toto]

Nicely done 

[redbaron1982]

Did he save the prop? Looks like a perfect landing giving the circumstances 

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Did he save the prop? Looks like a perfect landing giving the circumstances 

Looks like it.   Since it was an anticipated gear-up due to a mechanical failure it looks like they stopped the prop and managed to actually stop on the foam as well.   Can't tell what the flap or cowl flap positions were, but looks like they managed it for minimal damage.

[Paul Thomas]

I read that one of the blades touched on landing.

[Echo]

1 hour ago, Paul Thomas said:

I read that one of the blades touched on landing.

Bummer.  Video looked like prop stopped and was saved.

[jetdriven]

The problem with stopping the prop is that you have to fool around with the starter to bump it enough to get it to be horizontal. And doing all this while you’re in an extremely critical phase of  flight, and you also gave away your ability to go around in case you get a little too slow and slam it in which damages the airplane more. I just don’t think the perceived upside is gonna be nearly as good as the downside. There was a guy that did this I think with a traveler, and he was fooling around on the flare, bumping the prop trying to get it to stop horizontal, and it kept windmilling past that back to something not horizontal, and then he ended up hitting both props on the ground anyway, but he made it really hard landing because he stalled it because he was distracted. Don’t forget the potential for severe back injuries, because the seat frames in older planes are not designed to crush down like far part 23 seats are. There’s no shock absorbing system because the gear is up. 
I think the only upside here is that you might say the insurance company about $20,000. But you’re still going to have a claim, and they’re still going to raise your rates, and the additional part of the claim is gonna be more than the money you saved them, so I don’t think it really moves the needle all that much in the regard of upside. 

[PT20J]

FWIW, Don Maxwell told me that usually the pilot that stops the prop isn’t prepared for the decreased drag and is going too fast anyway fearful of stalling and ends up floating off the end of the runway and totaling the airplane. 

[EricJ]

19 minutes ago, PT20J said:

FWIW, Don Maxwell told me that usually the pilot that stops the prop isn’t prepared for the decreased drag and is going too fast anyway fearful of stalling and ends up floating off the end of the runway and totaling the airplane. 

I think that's part of why this one appears to be reasonably impressive.   Not only does it look like they landed with the prop stopped, they also managed to stop on the foam.    Usually the foamed area isn't all that long, so I thought it looked nicely done.

[MooneyMitch]

Foam............hmmmm.  Thought that went out years ago.

[Pinecone]

USAF stopped doing it in the late 70s.  The found that the foam decreased the friction to the point the airplane just ran off the foam and then slide the same amount as if there was no foam.

[Hank]

10 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Foam............hmmmm.  Thought that went out years ago.

I thought it had been stopped most places because so many times the emergency aircraft overshot and landed beyond the foam, likely due to reduced drag of the missing gear.

Glad to see it was available this time, the pilot landed in it and am curious to see if airframe damage was reduced compared to other gear-up landings.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

USAF stopped doing it in the late 70s.  The found that the foam decreased the friction to the point the airplane just ran off the foam and then slide the same amount as if there was no foam.

My understanding has been that the foam is to reduce friction and the likelihood of fire, not decrease the runway required.   Stopping in the foam seems optimal.  

[jetdriven]

After finally seeing the video, I don’t think that Pilot deliberately stopped the prop, he may have pulled the mixture, however. 

[Yetti]

That's not how foam works.  Foam floats on top of the oil to cut off oxygen to the fire.   And yes i used foam yesterday.  For a brush pile.   If it was Class B foam it is corrosive to aluminum.

 

[Paul Thomas]

6 minutes ago, Yetti said:

That's not how foam works.  Foam floats on top of the oil to cut off oxygen to the fire.   And yes i used foam yesterday.  For a brush pile.   If it was Class B foam it is corrosive to aluminum.

 

Do you know what class the airports use and whether it's corrosive? That would be a big negative toward foam. I don't recall seeing small airplanes catch on fire on a controlled gear up.

I'd think that even if the foam is slick, a lot a aerodynamic braking can be done to slow the airplane down. Keeping back pressure should also keep some weight off the airplane, hopefully further limiting damage.

I just hope to never be in that situation; even if you do everything perfect, what a nightmare. 

[EricJ]

31 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

After finally seeing the video, I don’t think that Pilot deliberately stopped the prop, he may have pulled the mixture, however. 

I hadn't seen the vid before, but just watched it and I agree.    Nice landing, though!   It didn't turn at all.

[TangoTango]

1 hour ago, Paul Thomas said:

I'd think that even if the foam is slick, a lot a aerodynamic braking can be done to slow the airplane down. Keeping back pressure should also keep some weight off the airplane, hopefully further limiting damage.

I don't think you would want to hold any back pressure past the flare. We use back pressure on the rollout to put extra weight on the main wheels for improved braking; I don't want that extra weight grinding the belly ribs into the asphalt during a gear up

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, TangoTango said:

I don't think you would want to hold any back pressure past the flare. We use back pressure on the rollout to put extra weight on the main wheels for improved braking; I don't want that extra weight grinding the belly ribs into the asphalt during a gear up

So raise the flaps in the flare to protect them and set the plane down pretty level?

[Yetti]

3 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

Do you know what class the airports use and whether it's corrosive? That would be a big negative toward foam. I don't recall seeing small airplanes catch on fire on a controlled gear up.

I'd think that even if the foam is slick, a lot a aerodynamic braking can be done to slow the airplane down. Keeping back pressure should also keep some weight off the airplane, hopefully further limiting damage.

I just hope to never be in that situation; even if you do everything perfect, what a nightmare. 

Hooks is where this happened.   They don't have AARF on the field, so it was a local fire departments.   Not sure what they would have on the trucks for that department.  Practice is not to foam the runways these days.   

 We carry class A for most every thing we do.     Dawn soap makes a really good foaming agent I have used it in a pressure washer and put out oil fires.   As we know Dawn is also corrosive to aluminum.

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

My understanding has been that the foam is to reduce friction and the likelihood of fire, not decrease the runway required.   Stopping in the foam seems optimal.  

As I said, the USAF found that the airplane slide on the foam, until it ran off the foam then slide the same distance on the dry pavement as if it had touched down without any foam at all.

[Yetti]

I spoke with one of the other fire departments located in the Houston area, but they don't cover Hooks airport.   He said they carry both A and B foam on the trucks.     We only carry A but we are rural fire department and 90% of our fire calls are grass and hay.    I have run more traffic calls in the last couple of weeks.   The one yesterday was energized car after the truck took out a power pole.  It was a little harder to tell because the hot wire fell across the barbed wire and burned through the top strand.    So all the barb wire was energized (metal T posts) the metal pipe fence (just finished it a couple of weeks ago) and the truck was touching the metal pipe fence.  1 person transported.

[A64Pilot]

On 8/11/2025 at 10:23 PM, PT20J said:

FWIW, Don Maxwell told me that usually the pilot that stops the prop isn’t prepared for the decreased drag and is going too fast anyway fearful of stalling and ends up floating off the end of the runway and totaling the airplane. 

A large portion of Ag plane accidents are from engine failures (They run them WAY past TBO) Anyway most it seems miss the point of intended landing and end up in the trees or fence at the end of the field, Most Turbines auto feather on oil pressure loss and it’s a big reduction in drag.

On edit, I’ve climbed to altitude to practice stopping the prop, on my 201 with factory prop, it won’t stop until I bring it real close to stall, and even then  it has to be bumped by the starter to get level, often of course flipping past compression and ending up where you started. I gave up on the idea of prop stopping on both engine failures at altitude and forced landing gear up.

Any that think it’s a viable practice I encourage them to try at altitude within easy gliding distance of a runway, just in case. Maybe your airplane is different? I don’t think attempting something in an emergency that you haven’t practiced is a good idea myself.

Ref it’s only $20K, no it’s a LOT more than $20K by the time you have to pay for engine R&R, tear down, inspection etc. depending on insurance limit it may push into being totaled, so I wanted to if possible save the prop

Edited August 14 by A64Pilot

[varlajo]

31 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

it won’t stop until I bring it real close to stall, and even then  it has to be bumped by the starter to get level

Very interesting info. Thank you!

[redbaron1982]

If the engine is not producing power, but the prop is spinning, a prop strike calls for a teardown too? I guess so because of the transversal forces and sudden stop (high acceleration  = high forces)