Scottsdale Mooney Mishap

[mooneygirl]

I was listening to LiveATC this morning at Scottsdale right after the incident.  Sounds like a student in his new-to-him [her] Mooney

 

http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/2012/07/09/20120709hurt-when-plane-skids-scottsdale-airport-runway-abrk.html

 

Video:  http://www.azcentral.com/video/1727384535001

[carqwik]

From a CFII I know based at SDL that saw the aftermath, the plane is apparently totaled (he also sells airplane insurance so he's probably a pretty good judge of what constitutes a totaled aircraft).  The instructor on board has a broken sternum per the local news tonight.  He also happens to be a long time City of Scottsdale councilman...and an advocate for the airport.  I have flown with him on one or two occasions...once for a BFR years ago.  Nice guy and an important politician for aviation interests....I wish him the best for his recovery.

Rumor has it that the plane was new to the owner for less than a week...but this is unconfirmed.  Tail number ends in something like "7MP."

[mooneygirl]

Does it look like a J?  I am so happy that airframe is tough!  Texas-tough.  I heard from a friend that the instructor is very qualified and an advocate of GA

[Antoni Deighton]

Gotta love the media! What's a "yolk controller"?

I hope both pilots make a full recovery. 

[aerobat95]

Well that sucks....I am glad that everyone made it out.  Guess it could have been a lot worse.

[aerobat95]

Well that sucks....I am glad that everyone made it out.  Guess it could have been a lot worse.

[1964-M20E]

From the looks of the plane I’d say it is totaled as well.  Glad to hear both are OK.  FWIW I have a wing I can sell them if they wanted to repair the plane :-)  It might fit.

[jetdriven]

What type of instructor advocates teaching touch and go landings in a complex airplane?

[PTK]

Quote: ad8n

Gotta love the media! What's a "yolk controller"?

I hope both pilots make a full recovery. 

[robert7467]

Touch and goes in a complex are very easy. I am working on my pilots license and I have done over 150 touch and goes. I do have a question though. When I land with flaps, it pushes the nose down too hard and causes the nosewheel to shimmy. It requires alot of back pressure to make it stop, and with touch and goes, I dont have time to trim and reconfigure. What I have been doing, is coming downwind and base at 100mph, and then final at 90mph, and all my landing since using no flaps has been perfect. Is  it really that bad, that I hate flaps in a Mooney?

And to answer your question "What type of instructor advocates teaching touch and go landings in a complex airplane?"

I have an instructor with over 6000hrs, 3500 of which have been teaching. I have had issues getting a CFI to train me, due to no brakes on the pass side, and it being complex.

When I approached him, he told me that ANY airplane is a good airplane to learn to fly in.

I will have to say one thing, since flying the mooney, I have flown the 172, 182, and I must say those are easy to fly because my my expierience in the mooney.

[1964-M20E]

I have heard it both ways from different instructors.  Why not do touch and go’s in a complex airplane?  This is the most economical way to get many landings under your belt quickly and become proficient.  I live near a military base and I see F-15s, F-16s, F-18s and C-130s doing touch and go’s all the time.  You do not get more complex than those planes.  OK it is on at 10k foot runway.  Besides IMHO if you flying a small complex plane like ours and cannot do a touch and go on 3000+ foot runway you need more practice granted a longer runway is better.  I’ll often go to a nearby airport with 3200 feet and do touch an go’s and occasionally I’ve had to do a go around. You have to be proficient and ready to do a go around if things are not looking good or make it a full stop.  Now if you are operating from a strip that is less than 3000 feet touch and go’s may not be the best option.

[jetdriven]

DEL. see below

 

 

[PTK]

Quote: robert7467

Touch and goes in a complex are very easy. I am working on my pilots license and I have done over 150 touch and goes. 

[jetdriven]

Quote: robert7467

Touch and goes in a complex are very easy. I am working on my pilots license and I have done over 150 touch and goes. I do have a question though. When I land with flaps, it pushes the nose down too hard and causes the nosewheel to shimmy. It requires alot of back pressure to make it stop, and with touch and goes, I dont have time to trim and reconfigure. What I have been doing, is coming downwind and base at 100mph, and then final at 90mph, and all my landing since using no flaps has been perfect. Is  it really that bad, that I hate flaps in a Mooney?

And to answer your question "What type of instructor advocates teaching touch and go landings in a complex airplane?"

I have an instructor with over 6000hrs, 3500 of which have been teaching. I have had issues getting a CFI to train me, due to no brakes on the pass side, and it being complex.

When I approached him, he told me that ANY airplane is a good airplane to learn to fly in.

I will have to say one thing, since flying the mooney, I have flown the 172, 182, and I must say those are easy to fly because my my expierience in the mooney.

[rob]

A lot of it depends on the specific airplane. In my 65C, everything is manual, and it's a chore to reconfigure from landing to take-off. It's not something you want to be doing while rolling down an active runway. Too much room for error. Further, a touch and go in my plane is nothing like a go-around - there is absolutely no comparison. 

I am of the opinion that the only thing a touch and go in my Mooney builds proficiency in is a touch and go. As evidenced earlier in this thread, trying to cram in landings with touch and goes leads to shortcuts and failings in other areas. A stop and go or taxi back is a much more effective practice technique in my opinion. 

 

[PTK]

Quote: 1964-M20E

 Why not do touch and go’s in a complex airplane?  This is the most economical way to get many landings under your belt quickly and become proficient. 

[rob]

Quote: 1964-M20E

I have heard it both ways from different instructors.  Why not do touch and go’s in a complex airplane?  This is the most economical way to get many landings under your belt quickly and become proficient.  I live near a military base and I see F-15s, F-16s, F-18s and C-130s doing touch and go’s all the time.  You do not get more complex than those planes.  OK it is on at 10k foot runway.  Besides IMHO if you flying a small complex plane like ours and cannot do a touch and go on 3000+ foot runway you need more practice granted a longer runway is better.  I’ll often go to a nearby airport with 3200 feet and do touch an go’s and occasionally I’ve had to do a go around. You have to be proficient and ready to do a go around if things are not looking good or make it a full stop.  Now if you are operating from a strip that is less than 3000 feet touch and go’s may not be the best option.

[OR75]

iMHO, a Mooney is not a great trainer plane. 

i would not practice touch and goes in it. however, learning how to go around is needed (in any aircraft)

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: robert7467

Touch and goes in a complex are very easy. I am working on my pilots license and I have done over 150 touch and goes. I do have a question though. When I land with flaps, it pushes the nose down too hard and causes the nosewheel to shimmy.

- Sounds like you might need to check the play in the nosegear with the plane on jacks

It requires alot of back pressure to make it stop, and with touch and goes, I dont have time to trim and reconfigure. What I have been doing, is coming downwind and base at 100mph, and then final at 90mph, and all my landing since using no flaps has been perfect. Is  it really that bad, that I hate flaps in a Mooney?

- You need to learn to land the plane with flaps.  90 mph is much too fast on final for a Mooney.

When I approached him, he told me that ANY airplane is a good airplane to learn to fly in.

-For the most part, that's true.  But every airplane is different

 

[MARZ]

Robert - do search the forum for landing tips - It's been discussed ad nauseum - but you will find out quickly that "this aint no cessna"  

Sounds to me that you (and your instructor) aren't setting the plane up right on final - trim it to speed

[robert7467]

Touch and goes actually teach me alot. One of my bigest challenges was landing the Mooney, and touch and goes helped me with "the picture", speed controll, radio work, etc......  And I have done plenty of go arounds.

[jetdriven]

If you are landing it flaps up and 90 MPH as a matter of standard procedure, you are NOT doing it right.

[robert7467]

"Sounds to me that you (and your instructor) aren't setting the plane up right on final - trim it to speed"

We were setting plane up perfectly on final, but for some reason, on this particular plane, flaps dont work for me. I dont know why, but I hate them.. On a Cessna, I love flaps, but Mooney, I hate them..... Also, going 90mph on final, the plane goes down right where I want it, and the landing is smooth and perfect every time... I dont know what it is about flaps on a Mooney, but I hate them. Most of my landing have been with flaps, and thats the reason it took me so long to solo. As soon as I quit using them, my landings have been perfect.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: robert7467

Touch and goes actually teach me alot. One of my bigest challenges was landing the Mooney, and touch and goes helped me with "the picture", speed controll, radio work, etc......  And I have done plenty of go arounds.

[WardHolbrook]

I've got a bit of experience with flight instructing. I've done touch and goes in everything from jets on down. When it comes teaching proper procedures they suck. I'll echo what the other experienced guys have said about them. They may have a place in non-complex airplanes, but the further up the complexity ladder you go the less they reflect real-world operations and the less value they provide. Robert, I suggest you reread what Mike, Parker, PK and all of the other experienced Mooney pilots have written.