Looking for a J-bar F model

[Zorro]

Hello everyone,

I’ve seen people post discussions like this in the classified section before but figured I’d get more eyes on posting it here. If this is the wrong spot I apologize. I’ve donated to the site as well.

So I’m looking for my holy grail. A Mooney F model with a Johnson bar and J model speed mods. I’ve got 100k and could go a little north of that for the right plane, but obviously would like to keep it lower if able. I’m also willing to entertain the idea of an E or J model, if the price is right. I need something with at least a garmin 430w to maintain my instrument rating. A couple of G5s would be nice along with a good autopilot and ADSB in/ out. It would also be nice to find something under a 1000 hours SMOH.

Please help! I made the mistake of asking for the opinions of my wife and children and they want me to get a 182. Not that there’s anything wrong with the 182, I just love the Mooneys. So, if you have one or know of anyone who’s considering selling, I’d love to hear from them. Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Vance Harral]

Good luck with your search.  If you're forced to compromise, I'd give up the speed mods first.  Yes, they make the airplane faster.  But not in a way that makes any operational difference to the vast majority of missions.  They also make the airplane slightly more difficult to work on.  That's not to say I don't think speed mods are worth it - that's a decision each owner gets to make for themselves.  I'm just opining that if you find the perfect F with everything else you want and no speed mods, I'd jump on it.

[Zorro]

Thanks Vance, 

I appreciate your input. From what I’ve read, you can get 3kts here and there with them, so it would be nice, but it’s not essential. Mainly, I just want the bigger side windows for my kids to be able to look out. Not that the bar is too obstructive, but if I had my choice.

[Shadrach]

I second everything Vance says above.  The speed mods make for a more attractive, modern looking aircraft but the ROI on speed is pretty small. Probably 5 to 8kts at most.  A well rigged, stock F model can be expected to yield 150kts at optimal cruise altitudes. Back of the panel access with stock upright windshield is…welll…possible…where as with the sloped windshield you have to go under or through the front. The SWTA sloped windshield modification retains two small access panels to the back of the panel. It’s better than nothing, but not ideal.

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Thanks Vance, 

I appreciate your input. From what I’ve read, you can get 3kts here and there with them, so it would be nice, but it’s not essential. Mainly, I just want the bigger side windows for my kids to be able to look out. Not that the bar is too obstructive, but if I had my choice.

My kids are infinitely happier in the plane after reinstalling the curtains. They like looking outside for sure, but having a shaded passenger compartment and ANR headsets is the biggest contributor to their comfort on long XCs. 

[N204TA]

The old rule-of-thumb is that speed mods cost about $1,000 a knot.  That's why I never bothered to make any changes.  I always wanted to do the cowl closure but, even then, I couldn't justify the expense.

I have a one-piece windshield, but it's not the sloped 201-style.  As Ross mentioned above, those two avionics access panels on the stock F have been a godsend and I wouldn't trade them for looks or a couple of extra knots.

[Zorro]

I know the feeling of the hot summer sun beating into an un air conditioned cabin on a cross country down the California valley. I imagine the curtains are a must. Thanks for the info Shadrach.

[Zorro]

N204TA,

I assume I’ll create a better working relationship with my mechanic if I find one that is stock.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Zorro said:

N204TA,

I assume I’ll create a better working relationship with my mechanic if I find one that is stock.

In terms of care and feeding, a vintage Mooney with manual gear is about least costly Single Engine Retract you can buy and operate. It gives tremendous capability for what it asks in return. 

[Vance Harral]

With regard to speed mods increasing maintenance complexity, the sloped windshield and resultant avionics access difficulty rightfully gets most of the attention.  But that's not all there is to it.  The stock cowl for the F with no mods, closures, or other "improvements" can be removed in about 2 minutes.  You can see the alternator and its belt, and the starter and its pop-out bendix gear during preflight.  You can inspect and service the flap attach bolts without having to remove hinge covers.  You can inspect and service other control surface hardware without having to remove or work around gap seals.  There are only two gear doors to rig.  The brake calipers and pads are a little easier to see in their original rearward position.  There are no fiberglass wingtips, wing fairings, or dorsal gap closures to crack and need repair, and so on.

Just something to keep in mind when/if you run across a pre-J model with "all the J speed mods".

[N201MKTurbo]

When I had a J-Bar F, I added the LASAR cowl closure. That thing was the best bang for the buck in aviation. It was worth about 4 KTS and lowered the oil temp. The only downside  was you couldn't get to the starter bendix easily anymore. Sometimes when it was real cold (-20F) the starter wouldn't engage. I could engage the bendix with a pen. A small sacrifice and I would do it again in a heartbeat. It took about 2 hours to install after I had the lower cowl off.

[Shadrach]

24 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

The stock cowl for the F with no mods, closures, or other "improvements" can be removed in about 2 minutes.  

And by stock cowl, I think Vance means the upper cowl and side panels only take a few minutes. The lower cowl piece is a bit of a PITA. Less than an hour to remove but not by much.

[bigmo]

Call Jimmy with your wish list. He’s tracking several a/c that no one sees. I did the same thing - long list of must haves and a couple of wants. Told him I had cash ready to go. It was 3 months and he called me and said “I’ve found your plane!”

[Vance Harral]

Just now, Shadrach said:

And by stock cowl, I think Vance means the upper cowl and side panels only take a few minutes.  The lower cowl piece is a bit of a PITA.

Correct, but there is almost never a reason to remove the lower cowl.  You don't need to do so for any kind of required inspection, and you certainly don't need to in order to work on the landing light, replace the air filter, replace alternator brushes, work on fuel and oil lines, etc.  We've only removed the lower cowl once in 20+ years, and that was because in the process of replacing the infamous air intake boot, we realized it was "most of the way off", and thought we may as well take it off and give it a really good scrub-down.

[N201MKTurbo]

I owned that plane for 19 years. i probably had the lower cowl off at least 10 times. After awhile you get good at it. I found it was easier if you left the intake boot attached to the cowl and take the bolts out at the servo end. 

[Vance Harral]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

i probably had the lower cowl off at least 10 times

Out of curiosity, what for?

[Zorro]

21 minutes ago, bigmo said:

Call Jimmy with your wish list. He’s tracking several a/c that no one sees. I did the same thing - long list of must haves and a couple of wants. Told him I had cash ready to go. It was 3 months and he called me and said “I’ve found your plane!”

Thanks for the heads up! Can you message me his contact info?

[Shadrach]

35 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When I had a J-Bar F, I added the LASAR cowl closure. That thing was the best bang for the buck in aviation. It was worth about 4 KTS and lowered the oil temp. The only downside  was you couldn't get to the starter bendix easily anymore. Sometimes when it was real cold (-20F) the starter wouldn't engage. I could engage the bendix with a pen. A small sacrifice and I would do it again in a heartbeat. It took about 2 hours to install after I had the lower cowl off.

Doesn’t the lower cowl enclosure also block ram airflow into the heater inlet?

The heater in my plane will cook you out of the cabin, but I’ve heard others complain that their heaters don’t perform as well. That complaint seems to correlate with the cowl enclosure.

[Shadrach]

23 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Out of curiosity, what for?

alternator/generator replacement, starter replacement, intake duct replacement, exhaust removal. The heat muff can be removed with the lower cowl in place, but it’s tight.

i’m sure I’ve left a few reasons off but I’ve had the lower cow off quite a bit. Indeed it’s off right now for a bunch of little things.

[Vance Harral]

We've never had the entire exhaust out, I can see how that would require removing the lower cowl.  Some of those other things can be done without removing the lower cowl, but if you've already gotten good at doing so, they're probably easier without it in place.

[bigmo]

14 minutes ago, Zorro said:

Thanks for the heads up! Can you message me his contact info?

Jimmy Garrison

210-872-1110 (c)

Also: jimmy@allamericanaircraft.com

Website Link: gmaxamericanaircraft.com

Financing, Insurance and Other Mooney referrals available.

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61559918482654

[Shadrach]

On 9/6/2024 at 6:54 PM, Vance Harral said:

We've never had the entire exhaust out, I can see how that would require removing the lower cowl.  Some of those other things can be done without removing the lower cowl, but if you've already gotten good at doing so, they're probably easier without it in place.

Having done all of them (some multiple times) in the last 20 years, I can’t think of one of them that is “probably” easier with the cowl off…they are all much easier with the cowl off. I am sure with some bloody knuckles and cursing I could manage but I don’t hurt myself anymore to save a little time. It often doesn’t work out anyway.  If the oil cooler is relocated to rear baffle wall behind #4, there may be exceptions which also goes for alternators conversions.

 

[M20F]

In today’s market I don’t think you are going to find all that for $100K, probably closer to $125K.  As others have suggested give a call to Jimmy Garrison.  
 
I would also encourage looking into other airframes.  5-10 knots sounds like a lot but it isn’t.   You may not find a 1000 SMOH, ADSB, 2 G5’s, Garmin WAAS, autopilot etc. in a Mooney but maybe in another type.  
 
Good luck!

[Paul Thomas]

On 9/6/2024 at 6:25 PM, Vance Harral said:

Correct, but there is almost never a reason to remove the lower cowl.  You don't need to do so for any kind of required inspection, and you certainly don't need to in order to work on the landing light, replace the air filter, replace alternator brushes, work on fuel and oil lines, etc.  We've only removed the lower cowl once in 20+ years, and that was because in the process of replacing the infamous air intake boot, we realized it was "most of the way off", and thought we may as well take it off and give it a really good scrub-down.

I'm shocked by this. I'm going to have to look at the cowl on the F model.

I remove my J cowl regularly and wish I could do it by myself instead of dragging my wife to the airport. I've only owned the airplane since April but it's come off for oil change, baffle repair, inspection, cleaning, to move the exhaust slightly as it was hitting the cowl flaps,  and I'm sure I'm forgetting other reasons to have it off. I like getting a good look at the engine. I've caught a couple of things firewall forward that I would like to improve on before next annual by having the cowl off. If I had any wish, it is that it came off easier and was a one man job.

[Vance Harral]

29 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

I'm shocked by this. I'm going to have to look at the cowl on the F model.

Attached are 3 photos of what our airplane looks like with the two "cheek" side panels and the top cowling removed.

The cheek panels are removed first and re-installed last.  They're held on with 14, quarter-turn fasteners, that take about 60 seconds per side to fasten/un-fasten.  The panels themselves are about 2' x 3' and weigh just a few pounds, it's a trivial, 1-man job to R&R them.

The top cowl is removed after the cheek panels are off, and reinstalled before the cheek panels are put back in place.  It's held in place by 5, quarter-turn fasteners; and 8, 10-32 machine screws.  It takes about 60 seconds to remove assuming you have an electric screwdriver.  It takes slightly longer to re-install, but only because it takes a few seconds to get it aligned on all four corners before fastening the screws.

As I said, we essentially never remove the lower cowl.  It's certainly not necessary to do so for an oil change.

All in all, it's a really nice design for maintenance, second only to hinged cowls like on certain Cherokee and Bonanza models.  The tradeoff vs. the M20J cowl is that it costs you about 7 knots, and a certain amount of ramp appeal.