M20J: What speed do you flight plan?

[201er]

M20J Drivers, what speed do you flight plan for? How accurate do you find those to be? Do you find yourself arriving on time with those numbers? Is it just me or does it seem that some people are using wildly optimistic speeds in discussions on this forum?

[bnicolette]

I generally plan on 160 kts between 6 - 8 thousand feet.  I find that I am generally 158 - 164 kts on the airspeed indicator in smooth air.  ROP

[jetdriven]

1500', 10.0 GPH, LOP,  145 KTAS

3-8K, LOP, 150 KTAS

9K+ LOP, 145 KTAS.

Add 5 kts for ROP.

[201er]

My numbers concur with Byron's. If I really feel like wasting money, I can get 10kts more for 100ROP but it's like pouring money on a camp fire. 150ktas seems like the real world number to me and so I plan it. When I'm ballparking trips, I use 140 cause there's bound to be some wind somewhere. It really hurts when I gotta go high power to get 140kts cause of the wind though!

[John Pleisse]

Mach .83.

[Bennett]

I have the LoPresti cowl, Powerflow exhaust, smooth one piece belly, the usual minor speed mods, new highly polished paint, minimal antennas,  and a two blade "Top Prop".  I flight plan 160 Kts at 6500' to 8500', with ram air open, and 10.5 gallons/hour fuel flow. That is with just me in the aircraft, generally working from full fuel at take-off, and about 100 lbs in the baggage compartment (mostly to move the CG aft). The rigging is good - flys well hands off - but looks a bit goofy with both ailerons slightly up in level flight.  I had an aircraft that reflexed its flaps up 10 degrees in level flight which brought about a 5 kt increase in speed, so maybe I am having a bit of this same effect in level flight with the ailerons up a bit. This number (160 Kts) has proved itself on many trips, and when flying the four cardinal headings in smooth air and averaging the four resultant speeds. Still, Knute's E model with smooth belly, 201 windshield, modified cowl, and smooth paint, can generally more than keep up with me. We have flown parallel a number of times, and there is very little speed differential between the aircraft. 

[PTK]

Quote: N4352H

Mach .83.

[jetdriven]

Mach .88 works pretty well, unless I am flying the space shuttle simulator, then its M 25.0 !

makes a Mooney feel awful slow.

[jetdriven]

Quote: Bennett

The rigging is good - flys well hands off - but looks a bit goofy with both ailerons slightly up in level flight.  I had an aircraft that reflexed its flaps up 10 degrees in level flight which brought about a 5 kt increase in speed, so maybe I am having a bit of this same effect in level flight with the ailerons up a bit.

[FlyDave]

Quote: jetdriven

Ours has that, I wonder if it helps or harms the speed.   According to Bill Wheat at the last MAPA convention, maximum 2 degrees down is the fastest.  The August 1976 issue of FLYING magazine said LoPresti tried reflexing flaps and ailerons on the prototype 201 and it didnt help either.  Lamnar flow wing anomaly?     So I wonder.....

[jetdriven]

The Flgiht Design CTLS has that also, flaps -5 above soemthing like 100 KIAS. 

[Bennett]

Dave,

The airplane I referrred to with reflexing flaps was designed by Dr. Mardsten, a Professor of aerodynamics, teaching at the University of Ottawa,in Canada.  He is well known for designing recod holding sailplanes. He designed the first Dova DV-1 as his personal aircraft, and evenually the aircraft went into production in the Czech Republic, Poland, and Germany.  The flaps are designed to reflex 10 degrees, and I can attest to their effectiveness.  The Corvalis/Columbia 400 also has a reflex flap setting.  I am reluctant to change my aileron settings, since everything is working so well.  I have heard that the ideal is about a 2 degree droop in level flight, but I'm not sure that this is the best for this particular aircraft.

[GTWreck]

Climb: 105 kts @ 14gph (I lean fairly aggresively once I'm at 1500 MSL to 1350-1400 EGT, which is still ROP)

Cruise: 155 kts @ 11gph (really closer to 10.5, but I like to round up for margin)

Descent: 165kts @ 8gph

 

 

[M016576]

Quote: Bennett

I have the LoPresti cowl, Powerflow exhaust, smooth one piece belly, the usual minor speed mods, new highly polished paint, minimal antennas,  and a two blade "Top Prop".  I flight plan 160 Kts at 6500' to 8500', with ram air open, and 10.5 gallons/hour fuel flow. That is with just me in the aircraft, generally working from full fuel at take-off, and about 100 lbs in the baggage compartment (mostly to move the CG aft). The rigging is good - flys well hands off - but looks a bit goofy with both ailerons slightly up in level flight.  I had an aircraft that reflexed its flaps up 10 degrees in level flight which brought about a 5 kt increase in speed, so maybe I am having a bit of this same effect in level flight with the ailerons up a bit. This number (160 Kts) has proved itself on many trips, and when flying the four cardinal headings in smooth air and averaging the four resultant speeds. Still, Knute's E model with smooth belly, 201 windshield, modified cowl, and smooth paint, can generally more than keep up with me. We have flown parallel a number of times, and there is very little speed differential between the aircraft. 

[jetdriven]

you should see his photo gallery and look at the panel!  The outside is just a beginning!

[M016576]

Quote: GTWreck

Climb: 105 kts @ 14gph (I lean fairly aggresively once I'm at 1500 MSL to 1350-1400 EGT, which is still ROP)

Cruise: 155 kts @ 11gph (really closer to 10.5, but I like to round up for margin)

Descent: 165kts @ 8gph

 

 

[M016576]

Quote: jetdriven

you should see his photo gallery and look at the panel!  The outside is just a beginning!

[bnicolette]

Quote: M016576

Wow.... Wow....  That plane should be featured by AOPA: it's a reborn J.  Stunning!

[Bennett]

Thanks for the kind words about the airplane.  I've been flying since the mid 1950s, and I am 77 now.  I consider this to be my last airplane as I intend to "hang up the keys" when I'm 80. So, I thought I would return to Mooneys, and this time I wanted an M20J.  When I bought the airplane, I took it to LASAR with instructions to rebuild or replace anything that wears out (essentially). It took quite a while, but they did just that. (Don't ask the cost, but I expected that, and I suggested that they create a label: Remanufactured by LASAR). The paint was done by ArtCraft in Santa Maria, the interior by Aircraft Designs at Pine Mountain Lake in Groveland, CA, and an entirely new panel, with all the avionics I wanted at Executive Air Maintainance at Scottsdale, AZ.  This process has taken close to a year, and I am just about done.  I know there is no way I could ever sell her anywhere near what she has cost me, but I intend to just fly her where and when I want for the next three years.  This, to me, justifies the costs involved. With her various speed mods I do get an honest 160 Knots at about 10.5 gallons per hour (The fuel flow indicator is just about perfect, with the only dfferences being who fuels the airplane).  At 12.5 gallons per hour I can get a few more knots, but Mooneys are all about effciency.  Below about 7500' she is just about as fast as was my M20K 261 conversion, which was really optimized for flight level flight with many, many mods.  

[jetdriven]

Bennet:

As others have suggeated, get in touch with Trey at MAPA, get an inflight photo, and make a magazine story about your M20J.  If he ever returns our emails (hah, not lilkely) , you might see a sport air racing article about our tired old 77 J as well!

[M016576]

Quote: Bennett

Thanks for the kind words about the airplane.  I've been flying since the mid 1950s, and I am 77 now.  I consider this to be my last airplane as I intend to "hang up the keys" when I'm 80. So, I thought I would return to Mooneys, and this time I wanted an M20J.  When I bought the airplane, I took it to LASAR with instructions to rebuild or replace anything that wears out (essentially). It took quite a while, but they did just that. (Don't ask the cost, but I expected that, and I suggested that they create a label: Remanufactured by LASAR). The paint was done by ArtCraft in Santa Maria, the interior by Aircraft Designs at Pine Mountain Lake in Groveland, CA, and an entirely new panel, with all the avionics I wanted at Executive Air Maintainance at Scottsdale, AZ.  This process has taken close to a year, and I am just about done.  I know there is no way I could ever sell her anywhere near what she has cost me, but I intend to just fly her where and when I want for the next three years.  This, to me, justifies the costs involved. With her various speed mods I do get an honest 160 Knots at about 10.5 gallons per hour (The fuel flow indicator is just about perfect, with the only dfferences being who fuels the airplane).  At 12.5 gallons per hour I can get a few more knots, but Mooneys are all about effciency.  Below about 7500' she is just about as fast as was my M20K 261 conversion, which was really optimized for flight level flight with many, many mods.  

[jetdriven]

Yep.  Put 300K into them. Sell for 250K.  Repeat.

 

 

[M016576]

Hmm....

Heres what I was thinking- my numbers are probably off but....

Aquire runout J: 80k

"extensive" inspection, annual, repairs: 25k

Upgrade avionics/panel (750, 430, 347): 50k

Paint & interior: 20k

Overhauled motor w/ accessories: 30k

 

That comes to 205k a copy.  Obviously a wag, but hey, one could hope!

 

[Bennett]

As I've indicated, I don't expect to recover my costs. In all candor I spent the money to reward myself for a life well lived, and to celebrate the fact that I am still flying and enjoying life. I even get to use her in some of my business travel, but I don't consider her a business aircraft. Even with all the costs involved, N335BB is far less expensive than buying any of the few new 4 seat aircraft still available.  She is as close to having a new M20J as I can cause it to happen. When it comes time to sell her, whatever I net will be a bonus for me.  Provided my health holds up, I will use the proceeds to buy a decent used trawler, and contimue my marine travels.  I have had my Islander 30 sailboat for several decades, and for about 10 years I was lucky enough to have a trawler as well, taking her to Mexico several times.  The older I get, the more I appreciate the great efficiency and relative speed of Mooneys. MO16576 is close in his cost estimates. I paid a bit more for the airframe which already had the LoPresti cowl, one piece belly, the low time "top prop", and the powerflow exhaust. He is a quite low on the interior and paint - close to double that by the end, but in my opinion, Tim's work is well worth it for a complete custom interior, and I am very pleased with ArtCraft's workmanship. The engine was low time SMOH, so that was a plus. LASAR's work was in the ballpark of your figures.  The avionics costs as estimated are about right. In reality, it makes little sense to spend these amounts, when "acceptable" paint and upholstery is available at far less cost, and as just as functional.  Sometimes you just do things because of the aesthetics, and for the pure pleasure received. 

[N9937c]

Bennet

There is a guy who bought a 1978 cherokee 235 the other day and i have to say I have never seen a nicer cleaner aircraft. Paint, interior is beyond description. The panel has been redone BUT the avionics are light. I think he said he paid 160,000. HE GOT A BARGAIN!

larry