talk about stalls

[Danb]

On 8/17/2024 at 8:18 PM, donkaye said:

Background: 32 Years Mooney M20M Ownership.  Instructing for 30 years.  For Detailed Flight Background See PDF Attached.

I do stalls in all transition trainings and Commercial ratings.  Every new Mooney was test flown before sale and the stall strips adjusted for straight ahead power off stalls.  I do the first stall per the Commercial standards.  I establish approach speed and a 500 ft/min descent rate, then reduces the power to idle and raise the nose at approximately 1° per second until the stall break.  I've never experienced a Mooney that "snapped" into any stall.  The Mooney will let you know close to the stall if it is going to drop a wing.  If so, we won't go to the break.  Since it stalled straight ahead when it was new, that means that something is out of rig and should be fixed.  In my airplane I can hold the yoke full back and the nose will bounce up and down stalling and unstalling without dropping a wing.  Yours should, too.

Power on stalls should be done at no greater than 65% power to keep deck angle reasonable.  Turning stalls at 20°, if coordinated, should present no more difficulty than straight ahead stalls. 

The only time I got into an unintentional spin was in a Mooney 231 and has been documented on my website.  It occurred many years ago at the stall break doing cross controlled stalls.  Do not go out and practice cross controlled stalls in a Mooney.  See my writeup at https://donkaye.com/useful-aviation-articles.

Bottom line; From my experience the Mooney stall characteristics are superior to those of other aircraft like Cessnas and Pipers that I have flown and in which I have taught. 

Background Flight Summary for Donald E. Kaye as of 8:17:2024.pdf 136.7 kB · 19 downloads

Don I had similar experience with a very experienced Mooney instructor I’ll not name. We were at 5000’ during a BFR, 10+ years ago  approximately 2 revolutions in a1988 J. He has 10,000 plus hours and owned Mooneys since 1982, a day I’ll not forget. Your description per your article was remarkably similar 

D

[Skates97]

18 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

 I'm convinced the Mooney wing isn't less-well-behaved in a stall than others, as designed; but that it's less forgiving of mis-rigging and minor "dings" than other airframes.

My plane when I first got it would always drop off the left wing in a stall, no matter what. Later found out that the flaps were not rigged even. It wasn't noticeable looking at them but if you lowered them and then raised them one would stop just before the other. Once that was fixed I was able to achieve the falling leaf stall.

[A64Pilot]

A few generalizations on stall

Firstly almost always the more “high performance” an aircraft is, the more you should be wary about stalls, especially accelerated ones.

Secondly almost all of us, CFI’s included practice stalls with pretty far fwd CG’s, usually empty aircraft except two pilots. Stalls at a much further aft CG as in people in back seat and baggage can be a whole different animal, so don’t be lulled into complacency by your gentle stalling airplane because it might not be when heavy and aft CG.

[cliffy]

I've related this conversation before here on MS

Had a private talk with Bill Wheat many years ago and he related to me that he tried numerous spins in the Mooney 

(IIRC short bodies) and on one he said it went to five turns and he almost didn't get out of it

He swore he'd never do that again. 

Just a word to the wise from the preeminent Mooney test pilot.  

 

[Fly Boomer]

56 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I've related this conversation before here on MS

Had a private talk with Bill Wheat many years ago and he related to me that he tried numerous spins in the Mooney 

(IIRC short bodies) and on one he said it went to five turns and he almost didn't get out of it

He swore he'd never do that again. 

Just a word to the wise from the preeminent Mooney test pilot.  

 

Similarly, Bob Kromer suggested it might not be a good idea to do aggressive slips to lose altitude during the base to final turn.  I think the message is clear.  You may get away with it, but the other half of maybe is ...

[N201MKTurbo]

53 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Similarly, Bob Kromer suggested it might not be a good idea to do aggressive slips to lose altitude during the base to final turn.  I think the message is clear.  You may get away with it, but the other half of maybe is ...

I used to do that in my M20F. One day it started to buffet. Scared holy bejesus out of me! Took my feet off the rudder and pointed the nose at the ground. I wasn’t quite so aggressive after that.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have to think if the Mooney had more rudder, we wouldn’t have issues with spins.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Similarly, Bob Kromer suggested it might not be a good idea to do aggressive slips to lose altitude during the base to final turn.  I think the message is clear.  You may get away with it, but the other half of maybe is ...

It's interesting that Bob said it was M20Ks and later that have the tail buffet during slips below 85 KIAS because the trim is full up in this configuration. From the other thread on trim, it seems that some need the trim full up or nearly full up on pre-K airplanes. My M20J with forward CG (one or two front seats filled) has maybe half nose up trim when set up for landing at 65 KIAS, full flaps.

Kromer - slips.pdf

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Similarly, Bob Kromer suggested it might not be a good idea to do aggressive slips to lose altitude during the base to final turn.  I think the message is clear.  You may get away with it, but the other half of maybe is ...

See 2 posts that Bob Krommer made to the Mooney List in December 2005: https://donkaye.com/useful-aviation-articles

Needing to slip the Mooney on final usually indicates failure to have established a stabilized approach.  There are times where a slip to final may be useful.  I've had ATC ask if I could do a short approach when on downwind with no time to widen the downwind.  A turning full slip (NOT SKID) in the landing configuration to final at 85 knots (no less per Bob Krommer) worked great.  Don't do it with passengers.  Or sometimes I've had a student misjudge the slope for the base turn and a slipping turn slightly above 85 knots solved the problem.  I'm not advocating doing slipping turns in the normal course of events; just that its another item in your bag of alternatives.

[dkkim73]

Interesting to re-read those Bob Kromer articles after flying the plane for a bit. I've encountered bobble due to the tailplane's stall (or partial stall) twice; it was very unnerving the last time. Kind of a potential gotcha I think when trimming heavily into the flare at forward (CG) loadings.

I don't recall being in much of a slip at the time, but it does raise the question of how to handle crosswinds otherwise. It doesn't look like the mains offer any caster, so any crab would have to be removed down low. I suppose the decreased downwash over the tail in ground effect gives you more margin to transition, if you're near the margin. Though I like the predictability of already having established a sideslip and knowing "how much is needed" before things get dynamic close to the ground. 

Watching the tailplane during different phases of flight has been interesting (haven't watch it during a stall yet

DK

[cliffy]

I'm just curious-  

For those who "trim in the flare"  what airspeed are you trimmed for on final before the flare ?

[dkkim73]

13 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I'm just curious-  

For those who "trim in the flare"  what airspeed are you trimmed for on final before the flare ?

I was initially given 85KIAS on final during transition training. 

Reviewing Don Kaye's video course and reference materials, I have been transitioning to 70-75KIAS on short final, based on weight, aiming to enter the round-out phase at this speed. Tried 1. trim-back-and-push-forward early on, 2. don't use much additional trim, and 3. trim to maintain light forces into the flare to better control height below a few feet, which usually wants a bit more aft trim vs. the above, once the plane is in ground effect and bleeding off energy. 

Sounds like different planes have different trim appetites, though...

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, PT20J said:

It's interesting that Bob said it was M20Ks and later that have the tail buffet during slips below 85 KIAS because the trim is full up in this configuration. From the other thread on trim, it seems that some need the trim full up or nearly full up on pre-K airplanes. My M20J with forward CG (one or two front seats filled) has maybe half nose up trim when set up for landing at 65 KIAS, full flaps.

Kromer - slips.pdf 367.56 kB · 6 downloads

Feels like I had read that article before, but it was a great review.  My interaction with Bob was at a MooneyMax, and he didn't go into as much detail as the article -- basically just said "don't slip like that".

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, donkaye said:

Needing to slip the Mooney on final usually indicates failure to have established a stabilized approach.

I'm easing into the 21st century.  The words "stabilized approach" were never spoken when I was getting my private.  It was essentially chop the throttle, and dive for the runway--worked okay on the tail-draggers I was flying.  Not so much for a Mooney.

[cliffy]

My hangar faces the runway touchdown zone

As I watch landings,  almost every Cirrus and Mooney does the same thing

Virtually 90% of them

I watch as they enter the flare and then PIO down the runway for another 1,000 feet until their speed

slows down enough to get the wheels to touch the runway

Invariably, always in a level or slightly nose low attitude that leads to a skip or bounce.

Virtually never do I see a Cirrus or Mooney touch down on the main wheels only!!

I watched a short body Mooney just yesterday do this 3 times in a row doing T&Gs

Yet, I watch as a G-4 (based here)  here touches down on the mains only and rolls 1,000 feet and then gently

lowers the nose wheel to the runway-every time,  

 

[RescueMunchkin]

I went and did a stall for the first time in my F yesterday from cruise settings at 15000 ft - I think the MP was around 13 inches and 2400 rpm.  Did a very slow pull, stall horn went off quite a bit higher MPH than when the plane broke, but I did have a right wing drop.  Recovery was easy with a tiny bit of rudder and just gentle release of backwards yoke pressure.

My question is if the altitude affects the stall characteristics much if at all - my Mooney training was in a G and all the stalls, both power off and takeoff simulated were very tame and similar to the Cessna trainers I learned in.

[Shadrach]

On 8/24/2024 at 3:24 PM, dkkim73 said:

I was initially given 85KIAS on final during transition training. 

Reviewing Don Kaye's video course and reference materials, I have been transitioning to 70-75KIAS on short final, based on weight, aiming to enter the round-out phase at this speed. Tried 1. trim-back-and-push-forward early on, 2. don't use much additional trim, and 3. trim to maintain light forces into the flare to better control height below a few feet, which usually wants a bit more aft trim vs. the above, once the plane is in ground effect and bleeding off energy. 

Sounds like different planes have different trim appetites, though...

What landing weight for 70KIAS target on short final?

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

What landing weight for 70KIAS target on short final?

From the POH landing speed at gross weight for short field, take off 5 knots for each 300 pounds that you are under gross.

[varlajo]

On 8/23/2024 at 6:45 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

I have to think if the Mooney had more rudder, we wouldn’t have issues with spins.

Like so? )

 

[N201MKTurbo]

14 minutes ago, varlajo said:

Like so? )

Well,it has a little bit more.

 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

From the POH landing speed at gross weight for short field, take of 5 knots for each 300 pounds that you are under gross.

I built an aircraft specific spreadsheet long ago that calculates stall and approach speeds in all configurations at any weight and bank angle up to 60°. I was actually curious about the weight range of his aircraft for normal single pilot ops. Normal single pilot ops for me is is between 2000 and 2100lbs (200lb pilot, two hours of fuel remaining and 20 to 40lbs of stuff/baggage). Under those conditions, I’m crossing the threshold of 55kias. 
 

If @dkkim73 is crossing the fence at 70kias, I’m guessing he weighs around 2700lbs for that target speed.

[A64Pilot]

On 8/23/2024 at 9:45 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

I have to think if the Mooney had more rudder, we wouldn’t have issues with spins.

I think your right, but tiny rudders seem to be a “thing” on more modern nose wheel airplanes.

I did one power on stall in my C-210 years ago, one was enough. It was low cruise power like maybe 18” MP or maybe even lower. I knew it was going to get interesting when even with full right rudder applied the ball started coming out to the right, but hey it’s a Cessna right, Cessna’s are a gentle as an old dog, they don’t bite.

When that 210 broke, it went over on its back and would I am sure would have entered a spin except it was WAY fwd CG with just two people in the front seats, put four more behind me with baggage and I’m real sure it would have gotten real ugly, very un Cessna like behavior, it bit hard and suddenly, caught me off guard. But the a C-210 has a Laminar flow wing too, but no stall strips.

Anytime you see stall strips on anything, be wary, because it has stall strips because it needs them to pass Certification, they aren’t ever put on that I aware of if they aren’t needed.

I’m not beating on Mooney, just bringing up they need to be respected is all. Now if you want to play around, let me recommend a C-140, that little airplane love’s to spin etc., but the second you stop holding it in a spin, it comes out on its own, immediately. So long as you don’t overspeed one they will allow you to get really out of shape, and won’t hurt you. Not acrobatic, just very forgiving of mistakes.

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I think your right, but tiny rudders seem to be a “thing” on more modern nose wheel airplanes.

‘I did one power on stall in my C-210 year ago, it was low cruise power like maybe 18” MP or maybe even lower. I knew it was going to get interesting when even with full right rudder applied the ball started coming out to the right, but hey it’s a Cessna right, Cessna’s are a gentle as an old dog.

When that 210 broke, it went over on its back and would I am sure would have entered a spin except if was WAY fwd CG with just two people in the front seats, put four more behind me with baggage and I’m real sure it would have gotten real ugly, very un Cessna like behavior. But the a C-210 has a Laminar flow wing too, but no stall strips.

Anytime you see stall strips on anything, be wary, because it has stall strips because it needs them to pass Certification, they aren’t ever put on that I aware of if they aren’t needed.

I’m not beating on Mooney, just bringing up they need to be respected is all. Now if you want to play around, let me recommend a C-140, that little airplane love’s to spin etc., but the second you stop holding it in a spin, it comes out on its own, immediately. So long as you don’t overspeed one they will allow you to get really out of shape, and won’t hurt you. Not acrobatic, just very forgiving of mistakes. 
 

I was under the impression that most GA aircraft had stall strips. Stall strips yield a pronounced buffet before the wing breaks

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I think your right, but tiny rudders seem to be a “thing” on more modern nose wheel airplanes..

Old Mooneys have small rudder, stopping the horizontal stabilizer. Around 1965 or 66 or so, the rudder was pushed all the way to the bottom of the vertical stabilizer. So not exactly a "more modern nose wheel airplane. "

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I was under the impression that most GA aircraft had stall strips. Stall strips yield a pronounced buffet before the wing breaks

Huh???