New Owner, need avionics advice

[fluffysheap]

I'd like to thank everyone for the advice that they gave me in this thread as well as in PMs:

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=4373

I did end up buying the plane, a 1980 M20K 231 with intercooler, wastegate, GAMIjectors, and a colorful past.  I had Don Maxwell do the pre-buy, which I upgraded to an annual after I decided to buy the plane.  It was an interesting process, Don found some previously unknown damage, and several other relatively minor problems due to inadequate maintenance by the previous two owners' A&Ps.  I was not surprised to find some problems, but the ones found were not the ones I expected.  After this was all discovered I was able to negotiate a price reduction, and complete the sale.  After two months of mostly waiting interrupted by occasional bouts of spending, a ferry pilot finally delivered the plane yesterday.  Some amusing follies took place trying to get an instructor to give me transition training, but I finally was able to find one.  I'm looking forward to actually flying the plane this week.  So far I have been limited to sitting in it and making zoom-zoom noises.

The next step for me is getting the avionics databases updated.  The aircraft is equipped with a Garmin 250XL, a Garmin 430 (non WAAS), and a Garmin/Apollo MX20.  I have experience with the 250 and 430, but not the MX20.  The MX20 is apparently crosslinked with the 430, which is also new to me (both the MX20 itself, as well as the crosslinkery.  My rental planes usually only had one GPS).  None of them have anything resembling a current database.  Jeppesen wants $1750 to update all three, which is a lot.  Rental planes always magically seem to have current, or at least recent databases!

The MX20 seems to be the best device, as it has a bigger and more colorful screen and seems to be more user-friendly.  It doesn't have its own GPS source, it takes position information from the 430.  This was apparently a common setup in the early 2000s, though the MX20 is now discontinued.  However, mine still seems to work fine, so I'm in no hurry to replace it.

My question is if it would be legal and useful for me to, for instance, update only the Apollo database and use the 430 mostly for its nav/comm radios and as a position source for the MX20.  This would save me several hundred dollars (the cost of the 250 update is insignificant).  I'm not sure what I would be costing myself in terms of usability if I did this however, or if it is just a terrible idea.

[jetdriven]

I would update the 430 for IFR use, and not spend any money on avionics for 9 months to a year.   There will likely be 5 grand in repairs once you start putting hours on it for things such as instruments, autopilots, and other bits that quit working.  After the first year, take stock of the situation, and then decide.

[231flyer]

I agree with Byron.  The 250XL is not IFR certified so you will need to update the 430.  I too would hold off on the MX20 updates and use a handheld aera or iPad for charts.

Good luck and welcome to the club.  I have had mine for 20 years....always get me where I need to go.!!!

[Parker_Woodruff]

Update priority in this order:

1) Garmin 430

2) MX20

3) Old Garmin GPS.

You need the GNS430 to legally use it for IFR navigation...the MX20 is an MFD best used for situational awareness and a good display of information.

I'm glad Don got you squared away and I think you'll really like the M20K.

[jlunseth]

I have a 430AW (WAAS) and MX20. To the best of my knowledge, the regs. that apply to updating databases, only apply to the GPS, and not to the MX20.  That said, I have a subscription for both, and as I recall the MX20 subscription is not very expensive, and updating the card for the MX20 only requires a USB card reader that the card will fit into, rather than the specialized Jepp device (Skybound adapter) that you need to buy in order to update the 430.  There do not seem to be alot of changes to the MX20 database from month to month, the update process is a blink of an eye, but the GPS database is rewritten completely with every update. 

There are two databases in the 430 BTW, there is the Navdata database, and the terrain database.  The navdata database is the one that needs regular updating in order to fly IFR.  And by the way, you need to log the updating just as you would a VOR check, with signature, date, place, database updated.  The terrain database is not required for IFR and does not need to be updated.  I understand that what many people do is update the navdata every 28 days as required by the regs., and take the Terrain card to an avionics shop once a year or so to have them update that.  The reason it is not so important to update the terrain card is that mountains, etc. typically don't change their elevation from year to year, an eon to eon subscription would probably cover it.  Although towers do go up and those are in the terrain db.

Is the 250 placarded as "Not for IFR?"  If not, if it is an IFR device, then to stay legal you probably either need to update it also, or have it placarded by someone who knows what they are doing.  I am not quite sure how you would placard one GPS and not another on the same panel.  Usually the placards just say "GPS Not for IFR Use" or something similar. 

Congratulations, you will love that airplane.  I have really enjoyed mine, it is a very capable machine.  The first time you pass FL180 and set your altimeter to 29.92 is kind of fun, but it gets passe after awhile. 

[jetdriven]

Does the GNS-430 non-Waas have a terrain database?    I thought the GNC-250XL was a VFR only unit.

 

Regarding "legal" I think as long as you verify each waypoint L/L before navigating with it, you can use it as /G while flying IFR with an expired database.

[Cruiser]

Database updates depend on how you will be flying and what you need. If you do not intend to do any IFR enroute or approaches, don't update any of them. The updates are for the NavData which is airport information, frequencies, waypoints etc. You should, if you intend to fly IFR, send the 430 into Garmin for the WAAS update. Cost is $3,000 and includes a current terrrain database. All the other stuff you should get use to operating and figure out their functionality before you start updating them.

[Cruiser]

Quote: jetdriven

Does the GNS-430 non-Waas have a terrain database?    I thought the GNC-250XL was a VFR only unit.

 

Regarding "legal" I think as long as you verify each waypoint L/L before navigating with it, you can use it as /G while flying IFR with an expired database.

[jwilkins]

My K (also a 1980) came with two G430s. I upgraded one to WAAS for the GPS approaches. I keep the nav database up to date on the WAAS unit.

If you can spare the cash I'd recommend upgrading to the WAAS. You might also consider updating the other databases once every year or so. Nav Aids and airport ID's do change ocassionally. When my former home airport got an AWOS the airport designator changed from 3G7 to KSDC. When the list of 'for this airport, use this old designator' got too long I'd update the Loran Nav Data card. Since it was not IFR it didn't really matter. When I put a G430 in that plane I got a nav data subscription.

I know a fellow who keeps his MX20 up to date and passes along the old card to a friend. Probably not Kosher, but the data is only a couple months old.

Best of luck with the new plane; I hope you are happy with yours as I am with mine.

Jim

[kortopates]

+1 for upgrading the GNS-430 to the WAAS version. It'll include terrain, if your non-waas box did not (terrain was available as an extra add on prior to the waas verison when it became standard) plus it will provide all the approaches with vertical guidance. These days with so many VNAV approach options all over the US including LPV that go down to 200', why limit yourself to only LNAV (and ILS)? You'll be buying a Jepp subscription to keep your box IFR legal - might as well swallow the extra $3k to get the full capabilities of waas now.

As for the Apollo MX20, just get yourself a one time update or new card for $100-$150 - I only update my GMX200 every few years and mostly just to pick up IFR airways changes.

Personally, I'd pull the GNC-250XL out and sell it on ebay to get whatever you could to put towards your waas upgrade. The user interface is very difficult for most to master and offers zero capability over the 430. At least till your 430 screen dies or similar malfunction; in which case you can use an ipad or portable gps for backup.

[wishboneash]

I have a Garmin 430 (non-WAAS) with a 696 which has terrain and XM Wx. I don't keep the 696 database current since terrain doesn't usually change (except perhaps in CA if there is a major earthquake!). Currently not subscribed to XM Wx and am waiting to see how ADS-B pans out with the portable tablets. The 430 is kept current, at some point I may upgrade this to a GTN 650 which will have the WAAS, terrain and airways with a bigger screen. The cost admittedly is higher than upgrading the 430 to WAAS+terrain but it seems to have a better UI as well. 

'78 M20J

[fluffysheap]

Thanks to all for all the advice.  I'll consider updating the 430 to 430W, but I'm not sure how much use that really is - most of the places I tend to go either have ILS or they only have a non-precision approach - I'm not sure when I'd use the precision GPS.  For 3K, I think I can hold off on this until there are more things I just can't do without it.

Jeppesen wants $900+ per year for nav, charts & plates for the MX20, which seems incredibly high.  They will not do a one-time update for charts/plates, only for nav/terrain.  I hate Apple, but it seems like I could get an iPad and a Foreflight subscription which would have all the same data plus lots more and spend less money, and next year I'd still have the iPad.  And the only drawback would be having to have an extra thing floating around in the cabin.  But I can also use the iPad to take notes and so on, so...

[jetdriven]

You will find the ipad extremely useful in ways no panel mount unit can.  For example, real VFR charts, preflight planning with radar and satellite, ADS-B weather inflight, and you can use the iPad for directions when you arrive, and as a computer in the hotel.

[M016576]

It's been implied above but no one has explicitly said it-

Another option you have is to not update any of the databases and fly VFR only or fly IFR but file for DME (/A suffix).  This option will save you money, and would work well if you don't plan on flying IFR often.  If you were to do this, and then ramp up your ifr flying in the future, I'd recommend then starting to purchase the NAV updates and becoming comfortable with the systems while first A) VFR, then IFR but in VMC and finally in IMC.  My guess is that most subscriptions for the 530/430 databases by GA users are hardly used compared to their commercial counterparts (too bad we don't get a GA discount...)

[jnisley]

[PTK]

Quote: jetdriven

You will find the ipad extremely useful in ways no panel mount unit can.  For example, real VFR charts, preflight planning with radar and satellite, ADS-B weather inflight, and you can use the iPad for directions when you arrive, and as a computer in the hotel.

[Hank]

Yes, I've heard about the next new iPad due out in a few months. Just like the iPhone 5 was due out in a few months, every month from June to October, when the 4S was released. A smaller iPad would be wonderful!

As for XM/ADSB, equipment cost seems comparable. Garmin Aera 510 is ~$1600; iPads run $600-800, plus a Stratus for $800. Both will add wires to the cockpit [Garmin to the GPS puck; all may need power if desired], and you need a place to mount the Stratus and a large spot to put the iPad. Avoiding the monthly XM charges make the Stratus look much better even though it takes two pieces instead of just one. At least an iPad has other uses, but that means it won't always be sitting in the plane waiting to go fly, and how long will it take to go get it and head for the airport?

[PTK]

It would be nice to have some way to export a flight plan from a Garmin panel mount unit and have it populate onto the iPad! As it can to Garmin handhelds. But I guess that's asking for too much!

[smccray]

Quote: allsmiles

Ditto! I personally wish the iPad was a bit smaller. I'm waiting! I have heard that there is a new iPad to come out supposedly in a few months that is smaller. Has anyone else heard this rumor?

[Txbyker]

Check out the new Garmin Pilot App for iPAD.  You gotta think they will connect soon, iPAD, GNS, Aera, 796, etc.  

[Hank]

I've got an iPad 1, no wifi. I've played with the Foreflight trial. What I don't have is a good way to carry the durn thing in my cockpit. Sure, I could plonk it in the middle of the yoke, losing my clock, give it a little more "Up" trim to counter the weight and stretch up to see the DG over it. So far, I've not seen an iPad kneeboard that I like. With a throttle quadrant, even my current little kneeboard [folded in half 8½ x 11 paper fits perfectly] has to go on my left leg for clearance.

[jlunseth]

Quote: Hank

I've got an iPad 1, no wifi. I've played with the Foreflight trial. What I don't have is a good way to carry the durn thing in my cockpit. Sure, I could plonk it in the middle of the yoke, losing my clock, give it a little more "Up" trim to counter the weight and stretch up to see the DG over it. So far, I've not seen an iPad kneeboard that I like. With a throttle quadrant, even my current little kneeboard [folded in half 8½ x 11 paper fits perfectly] has to go on my left leg for clearance.

[Hank]

Quote: jlunseth

 Its expensive, but the aluminum one at www.forpilotsonly.com is really good.  There is a "door" that opens on the front, that is about 2/3rds the height of the iPad.  It has a clip on it.  So you can clip any paper you need (like a checklist) to the front, close the door, and rest your hands in your lap without accidentally "igniting" all kinds of functions on the iPad - as you would if you put your hands on the iPad.  It also holds the iPad off your leg just far enough, maybe a quarter to a third of an inch, that the iPad does not overheat nor does your leg.  It is not much larger than the iPad itself.  You may be a bigger fella than me, I am 5' 10", 200 lbs., but the only interference I get with the yoke is when I open or close the door on the front of the case.  Then I have to pull the case back a little so the door clears the yoke.

I can't imagine putting an iPad on the yoke itself, would be too hard to see the panel or hold the yoke, the thing is just too big.

[John Pleisse]

Upgrade the 430 to WAAS...your best bang for the buck in terms of operations and resale. Then move from there and see what you want to do. The 250XL is a great back up...but data shouldn't cost that much.

Frivoulous, but maybe of help is having your avionis guy have switchable rs232 inputs to the MX 20 from both GPS's at some point.