Used autopilot options for m20F

[kechmant]

I have an 1968 M20F and installing gdl88 for adsb in. Want to put an autopilot at the same time but have only fraction of what I need for Garmin or Aero cruze. 

Has anybody had experience installing used S-tec and reusing their STC? What are my other options?

I will be looking for complete system on ebay, from salvage yards and maybe someone here recently upgraded and wants to sell old autopilot. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

19 minutes ago, kechmant said:

I have an 1968 M20F and installing gdl88 for adsb in. Want to put an autopilot at the same time but have only fraction of what I need for Garmin or Aero cruze. 

Has anybody had experience installing used S-tec and reusing their STC? What are my other options?

I will be looking for complete system on ebay, from salvage yards and maybe someone here recently upgraded and wants to sell old autopilot. 

An STC is specific to a single airplane.   So you can’t reuse the STC you have to get a new one from the company.  My understanding is STEC wants 3k? to reissue an STC.  Once you pay for the STC, the parts and the labor you are going to be approximately at the cost of the Aerocruze.    The only auto pilot I think you could do cheaper would be the original Mooney PC system.   Personally I wouldn’t want to put in the effort to do a new install on a system that old but it is an option. 

[kechmant]

I guess having an autopilot for under 5k was my daydreaming then. 

[LANCECASPER]

10 minutes ago, kechmant said:

I guess having an autopilot for under 5k was my daydreaming then. 

You're only chance is if the Porta-Pilot ever gets approved for the Mooney   https://www.portapilot.com/

(Brought to you by the same folks who gave us the Porta-Potty maybe . .  lol)

[DCarlton]

Does it still have the Brittain wing leveler?  

[kechmant]

It still has brittain but the whole system is kaput and I wanted to trash it. 

[DCarlton]

8 minutes ago, kechmant said:

It still has brittain but the whole system is kaput and I wanted to trash it. 

Understand.  Maybe you could refurb it and get it going while there's someone out there that still knows how to work on the pieces and parts and provide some tech support.  That's what I'm trying to do.  

Please offer up your parts if you do "trash it".  

[dkkim73]

33 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You're only chance is if the Porta-Pilot ever gets approved for the Mooney   https://www.portapilot.com/

(Brought to you by the same folks who gave us the Porta-Potty maybe . .  lol)

That's actually very interesting. I was kinda of joking in my mind about what you meant, clicked on the link, and not far off! 

More extreme would be this: 

[dkkim73]

29 minutes ago, kechmant said:

It still has brittain but the whole system is kaput and I wanted to trash it. 

I'd have to research it, but seems like better than nothing for now? Esp. for IFR...

[kechmant]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Understand.  Maybe you could refurb it and get it going while there's someone out there that still knows how to work on the pieces and parts and provide some tech support.  That's what I'm trying to do.  

Please offer up your parts if you do "trash it".  

I will. I believe turn coordinator is still working. 

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, kechmant said:

It still has brittain but the whole system is kaput and I wanted to trash it. 

No personal experience with the system, but I understand it was a pretty decent system.  And, I think there is still support to some degree. Turning it from 'kaput' to functioning might not be as hard as you may think, and certainly much cheaper than any other alternative.  Especially if your budget is $5K

[kechmant]

My personal experience with the system tells me it is not worth fixing. I’ve instructed in a dozen of old Mooneys, probably half of them still had the system but only in one it was not inop. We tried it in flight and it wasn’t working right, literally, it was pulling to the left with the knob all the way to the right. 

All servo cups in my plane have big cracks all hoses are dried. 

I still lean towards an old Stec maybe a 30. Buying a working system for 1-2k and paying for their STC…

I wont have to pay for installation 

[MikeOH]

Well, I’ve certainly been very happy with my STEC-30. No idea what you can get a used system for, and if you can do the work yourself maybe $5K is possible.

But that sounds like a whole lot more work than replacing servo boots and the plastic lines in your existing installation.

It doesn’t seem a fair comparison if all the planes you had experience with had broken systems; more like a reflection of poor maintenance than a poor design.

[Echo]

I looked into stek install (existing used system into a different plane. 
 

All I can say is good luck and fully understand legality and cost before proceeding. 

[DCarlton]

10 hours ago, kechmant said:

My personal experience with the system tells me it is not worth fixing. I’ve instructed in a dozen of old Mooneys, probably half of them still had the system but only in one it was not inop. We tried it in flight and it wasn’t working right, literally, it was pulling to the left with the knob all the way to the right. 

All servo cups in my plane have big cracks all hoses are dried. 

I still lean towards an old Stec maybe a 30. Buying a working system for 1-2k and paying for their STC…

I wont have to pay for installation 

Hoses are easy but it sounds like you need seals for sure.  The servo seals aren’t readily available new but I’ve been told there is a seal that will work.  About $1700 for a set of 10.  Even if you split a set with another Mooney owner you’d be in to it a grand for seals.  Or you could search for used.  
 

if your turn coordinator is a TC100EVT, I’d be interested.  

[Schllc]

I would consider an autopilot a critical piece of safety equipment. 
while one should absolutely remain proficient in flying without one, I would not consider an airplane without one.

While my comments about spending on an airplane are often construed as cavalier about money, that isn’t really the basis for my argument. 
flying ourselves has the highest consequence available, and I always ask myself if I were in a position to need that “thing” to save my life, would I be sweating what it cost?   
the answer is usually no, and since that is a critical safety feature for me, if I didn’t have the money for it, I would not own a plane. 
I understand that everyone’s limits are different, and my comments aren’t meant as a judgement, just a different perspective. 

[DCarlton]

22 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I would consider an autopilot a critical piece of safety equipment. 
while one should absolutely remain proficient in flying without one, I would not consider an airplane without one.

While my comments about spending on an airplane are often construed as cavalier about money, that isn’t really the basis for my argument. 
flying ourselves has the highest consequence available, and I always ask myself if I were in a position to need that “thing” to save my life, would I be sweating what it cost?   
the answer is usually no, and since that is a critical safety feature for me, if I didn’t have the money for it, I would not own a plane. 
I understand that everyone’s limits are different, and my comments aren’t meant as a judgement, just a different perspective. 

Depends on your type of flying though doesn’t it?  Is a wing leveler enough for light IFR?  Or an autopilot that tracks a heading bug?  But yes, I’d love to fly an approach hands off.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

14 hours ago, kechmant said:

I will. I believe turn coordinator is still working. 

I have a complete set of vacuum servos with serviceable boots with the exception of the retractable step servo, that one works but leaks a little.  If you want them send me a message and I’ll make you a deal on them.  

[Echo]

Servos are redily available on ebay.  They are not expensive.  The wing leveler controllers are also available and there are individuals that still service them.  The brittain system can definitly save your life with inadvertant entry into IFR conditions.

[00-Negative]

7 minutes ago, Echo said:

The brittain system can definitly save your life with inadvertant entry into IFR conditions.

Absolute truth!

[kechmant]

11 minutes ago, 00-Negative said:

Absolute truth!

My thinking was it will kill you in IMC before gyros spool down in case of a vacuum pump failure. 

Going back to the topic:

Just spoke to Genesys support,

Stec doesn’t sell their STCs for legacy products anymore. 

[RescueMunchkin]

I trained in a M20 that had the PC system and really disliked it.  Having to hold the override button down during approaches or maneuvers is a real PITA.

I may be in the minority on my opinion, but if I was not instrument rated and primarily fly in VMC, I would rather not have PC.  Having to deal with the burden of it for the off chance that I fly into IMC is not worth it to me.  There could also be increased risk of complacency from a non instrument rated pilot being cavalier about flying into IMC because the false sense of security that the PC will keep them safe.

[Echo]

On 7/29/2024 at 3:21 PM, RescueMunchkin said:

I trained in a M20 that had the PC system and really disliked it.  Having to hold the override button down during approaches or maneuvers is a real PITA.

I may be in the minority on my opinion, but if I was not instrument rated and primarily fly in VMC, I would rather not have PC.  Having to deal with the burden of it for the off chance that I fly into IMC is not worth it to me.  There could also be increased risk of complacency from a non instrument rated pilot being cavalier about flying into IMC because the false sense of security that the PC will keep them safe.

Well I have flown with PC operative for 700+ hours and I could not disagree more with your comments.  The PC can easily be overpowered and there are electric and manual dumps that do not require holding the disconnect with your poor widdle thumb.  The majority of flight is not maneuvering.  Having the plane automatically hold wings level is a wonderful simple device.  P.C. rocks.

[DCarlton]

On 7/29/2024 at 1:21 PM, RescueMunchkin said:

I trained in a M20 that had the PC system and really disliked it.  Having to hold the override button down during approaches or maneuvers is a real PITA.

I may be in the minority on my opinion, but if I was not instrument rated and primarily fly in VMC, I would rather not have PC.  Having to deal with the burden of it for the off chance that I fly into IMC is not worth it to me.  There could also be increased risk of complacency from a non instrument rated pilot being cavalier about flying into IMC because the false sense of security that the PC will keep them safe.

It's very easy to add a panel mounted pneumatic switch to cut off the wing leveler.  It does the same thing as the yoke mounted push button.  I've had one for years.  Use it all the time.  

[M20F-1968]

Years ago, STC's were issued without serial numbers defining specific airplanes.  The next hurdle would be to find a used autopilot that came from the make and model airplane which you have.  If you satisfy these two criteria, you could install the used autopilot, and have work done to repair or restore it.  

STEC will not reconfigure an autopilot to a different airframe than what you have.

John Breda