Glazed Cylinder Borescope Images

[GIIIPilot]

Hi TheAv8r, I am experiencing the same thing breaking in a Lycoming engine that was overhauled with Continental NiC3 cylinder assemblies. I only have 3.5 hours of flight time but I am finding that I have to pull the plugs every flight or two to clean the oil from them – rough running engine and sometimes the right mag check (right mag powers lower plugs) completely fails. One of my theories is an assembly flaw at the factory. I am wondering if your engine was overhauled with Continental cylinder assemblies and if so, when were they purchased.

[Jsno]

Another possible reason for the oil consumption is that the compression rings might have been installed wrong side up.  This will allow oil to blow by.

[TheAv8r]

On 7/29/2024 at 5:49 AM, GIIIPilot said:

Hi TheAv8r, I am experiencing the same thing breaking in a Lycoming engine that was overhauled with Continental NiC3 cylinder assemblies. I only have 3.5 hours of flight time but I am finding that I have to pull the plugs every flight or two to clean the oil from them – rough running engine and sometimes the right mag check (right mag powers lower plugs) completely fails. One of my theories is an assembly flaw at the factory. I am wondering if your engine was overhauled with Continental cylinder assemblies and if so, when were they purchased.

Sorry to hear that! It was not overhauled with Continental cylinders, they are the original Lycoming cylinders overhauled by a reputable cylinder shop. 3.5 hrs in, it's normal to have some oil fouling, but causing a rough running engine and the right mag check failing sounds like something more... have you verified the mag timing is correct on the right mag? After cleaning the plugs does it run smooth both inflight and during the run-up? 

Note: I was at Osh and spoke with 2 Lycoming reps on this, I asked them how long from their experience Nickel cylinders take to break-in. They both said 200 hours.  They said nickel is a very hard metal and it takes a lot of time to break-in. So now I've heard everything from 20 minutes to 200 hours. I'm not running at 75% power for 200 hours, but for now, plan to just keep flying it until 60hrs and take another look at everything...

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, TheAv8r said:

Note: I was at Osh and spoke with 2 Lycoming reps on this, I asked them how long from their experience Nickel cylinders take to break-in. They both said 200 hours.  They said nickel is a very hard metal and it takes a lot of time to break-in. So now I've heard everything from 20 minutes to 200 hours. I'm not running at 75% power for 200 hours, but for now, plan to just keep flying it until 60hrs and take another look at everything...

Wow...200hrs to establish oil control...? Can you imagine?  Your response should have been so I need to run 70% or more for the next two years and or 10% of TBO while limiting ground ops and no pattern work? 

No cylinder should take 200hrs to break in. Chrome is the hardest and takes the longest at ~25-30hrs.

Nickel cylinders typically break in faster than steel and steel should be all done between 5 and 10 hours.

I guess one of the benefits of hiring ignorant reps is that they don't now when they're shoveling BS...

 

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, TheAv8r said:

Note: I was at Osh and spoke with 2 Lycoming reps on this, I asked them how long from their experience Nickel cylinders take to break-in. They both said 200 hours. 

Every Lycoming rep I’ve ever talked to at Osh didn’t know the difference between a crankshaft and a toilet plunger. Maybe some of them are floor techs but in all of my experience, they were marketing or accounting people trying not to sound totally uninformed and I walked away from the conversation dumber than when I walked up. 

[Shadrach]

20 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Every Lycoming rep I’ve ever talked to at Osh didn’t know the difference between a crankshaft and a toilet plunger. Maybe some of them are floor techs but in all of my experience, they were marketing or accounting people trying not to sound totally uninformed and I walked away from the conversation dumber than when I walked up. 

I expect the @TheAv8r had the same experience whether he recognized it or not.

[Jsno]

The nickel cylinders do not wear.  It’s the very soft rings that wear in.  40 minutes of 75% power will do it.  Just be sure to keep low RPM running on a ground to the minimum before the break in flight.  I think the rep that you talked too was very inexperienced and instead of admitting lack of knowledge he BSd you.  It is critical to seat those rigs properly.  If the cylinders have glazed you can fly it for many hours and they will not seat.  The only option then is to remove them and hone the cylinders.

[TheAv8r]

20 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Wow...200hrs to establish oil control...? Can you imagine?  Your response should have been so I need to run 70% or more for the next two years and or 10% of TBO while limiting ground ops and no pattern work? 

No cylinder should take 200hrs to break in. Chrome is the hardest and takes the longest at ~25-30hrs.

Nickel cylinders typically break in faster than steel and steel should be all done between 5 and 10 hours.

I guess one of the benefits of hiring ignorant reps is that they don't now when they're shoveling BS...

 

 

19 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I expect the @TheAv8r had the same experience whether he cognized it or not.

Haha oh that's exactly what I said. Actually I flat out told him "there's no way I'm running 75% power and not doing IFR work or T&Gs for 200 hours." I also said "Your own Service Instruction for break-in says 50 hours, why are you saying 200?" And he told me "That's for steel cylinders." What's odd is that there were marketing guys at the booth and I specifically sought out the Field Technicians who were there to answer MX questions . I agree with you, nothing should take 200hrs... 

ECI who invented the CermiNil process used says 50hrs in their break-in manual, so if anyone would know how long it takes it would be them. 

I've got 20hrs on it now and am adding about 1/4 qt every flight, with each flight being at least 1.5-2hrs which per my spreadsheet based on Hobbs time is showing somewhere around a qt every 8-10hrs.

[Shadrach]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:57 AM, TheAv8r said:

 

Haha oh that's exactly what I said. Actually I flat out told him "there's no way I'm running 75% power and not doing IFR work or T&Gs for 200 hours." I also said "Your own Service Instruction for break-in says 50 hours, why are you saying 200?" And he told me "That's for steel cylinders." What's odd is that there were marketing guys at the booth and I specifically sought out the Field Technicians who were there to answer MX questions . I agree with you, nothing should take 200hrs... 

ECI who invented the CermiNil process used says 50hrs in their break-in manual, so if anyone would know how long it takes it would be them. 

I've got 20hrs on it now and am adding about 1/4 qt every flight, with each flight being at least 1.5-2hrs which per my spreadsheet based on Hobbs time is showing somewhere around a qt every 8-10hrs.

What oil level are you trying to maintain? A qt every 8 to 10 hours is pretty reasonable.

[dzeleski]

21 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What oul level are you trying to maintain? A qt every 8 to 10 hours is pretty pretty reasonable.

Agreed, thats what my engine averages out to over the course of a full 50 hour interval. First 25 hours it uses less then the last 25.

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

Agreed, thats what my engine averages out to over the course of a full 50 hour interval. First 25 hours it uses less then the last 25.

Im pretty close to that. I usually add three over a 50hr interval and it’s ready for a fourth at oil change.

[TheAv8r]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

What oul level are you trying to maintain? A qt every 8 to 10 hours is pretty reasonable.

6 quarts, I add oil anytime below 6 to bring it back to 6. 

I was hoping more for 12-15hrs/qt on a fresh engine, but maybe I'm just optimistic. Right now the numbers are showing from 19.7 Hobbs to 10.2 Hobbs, I have added 1.2qts. So 1.2qts per 9.5 hobbs = 1 qt/7.9hrs. However the last 2.2 Hobbs, I flew the first 1hr WOT/full rich/high RPM, and that usually consumes more oil than a standard flight so there's some variance there where it consumed 0.45 qt vs 0.25 qt at the same Hobbs times as previous flights. If I account for that variance and assume it's 0.25 to be standard with the trend, then I added 1qt for 9.5 hrs, which I would be happy with.

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, TheAv8r said:

6 quarts, I add oil anytime below 6 to bring it back to 6. 

I was hoping more for 12-15hrs/qt on a fresh engine, but maybe I'm just optimistic. Right now the numbers are showing from 19.7 Hobbs to 10.2 Hobbs, I have added 1.2qts. So 1.2qts per 9.5 hobbs = 1 qt/7.9hrs. However the last 2.2 Hobbs, I flew the first 1hr WOT/full rich/high RPM, and that usually consumes more oil than a standard flight so there's some variance there where it consumed 0.45 qt vs 0.25 qt at the same Hobbs times as previous flights. If I account for that variance and assume it's 0.25 to be standard with the trend, then I added 1qt for 9.5 hrs, which I would be happy with.

Keep and eye on the consumption but go enjoy your airplane. Keep extra oil in the back just in case.

[GIIIPilot]

On 7/30/2024 at 12:42 PM, TheAv8r said:

Sorry to hear that! It was not overhauled with Continental cylinders, they are the original Lycoming cylinders overhauled by a reputable cylinder shop. 3.5 hrs in, it's normal to have some oil fouling, but causing a rough running engine and the right mag check failing sounds like something more... have you verified the mag timing is correct on the right mag? After cleaning the plugs does it run smooth both inflight and during the run-up? 

My engine runs better after cleaning the plugs but after a short while, runs rough at low RPM. I sent my borescope pictures to Savvy Aviation and this is what they said:

1. Rings not gapped, need to revisit the overhauler and or the installing mechanic to determine if ring gap was indeed checked on install of the cylinders. If not, they should have been. Finding mechanics/shops installing cylinders without correct rings or mostly not checking ring gap. (or ring position)

2. Breakin was not good and the cylinder walls glazed over. Was not very apparent in first dark photos but looks like this might be the case now. Walls are dark, valleys are dark.

Here is a picture of a typical cylinder wall. You can see the oil pooling in the upper portion of the picture.

[N201MKTurbo]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:20 AM, TheAv8r said:

6 quarts, I add oil anytime below 6 to bring it back to 6. 

I was hoping more for 12-15hrs/qt on a fresh engine, but maybe I'm just optimistic. Right now the numbers are showing from 19.7 Hobbs to 10.2 Hobbs, I have added 1.2qts. So 1.2qts per 9.5 hobbs = 1 qt/7.9hrs. However the last 2.2 Hobbs, I flew the first 1hr WOT/full rich/high RPM, and that usually consumes more oil than a standard flight so there's some variance there where it consumed 0.45 qt vs 0.25 qt at the same Hobbs times as previous flights. If I account for that variance and assume it's 0.25 to be standard with the trend, then I added 1qt for 9.5 hrs, which I would be happy with.

Are you actually adding partial quarts to your engine? In 40 years of airplane ownership, I’ve never added less than a quart. If I want 6, I wait till it is below 6 then add a quart. The engine will run fine anywhere between 2 and 8

[TheAv8r]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Are you actually adding partial quarts to your engine? In 40 years of airplane ownership, I’ve never added less than a quart. If I want 6, I wait till it is below 6 then add a quart. The engine will run fine anywhere between 2 and 8

Yeah, I maintain the oil level at 6. Anything above 6, it will usually blow out. It's below 6 every flight. I suppose I could wait until it's at 5 and add a quart, but seems like tomato/tomato if it accomplishes the same goal of bringing it back up to 6. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, TheAv8r said:

Yeah, I maintain the oil level at 6. Anything above 6, it will usually blow out. It's below 6 every flight. I suppose I could wait until it's at 5 and add a quart, but seems like tomato/tomato if it accomplishes the same goal of bringing it back up to 6. 

Seems like a lot of extra work. But if it makes you happy go for it.

The majority of my Mooney time was commuting. The time it took to make the trip was more influenced by how much time it took to open the hangar door and prep the plane than the speed of the plane.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Are you actually adding partial quarts to your engine? In 40 years of airplane ownership, I’ve never added less than a quart. If I want 6, I wait till it is below 6 then add a quart. The engine will run fine anywhere between 2 and 8

Might run fine with just a few quarts, but this time of year I think oil temp would be significantly elevated…which increases the burn rate…which would be sub optimal when starting with just a few quarts.

[N201MKTurbo]

39 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Might run fine with just a few quarts, but this time of year I think oil temp would be significantly elevated…which increases the burn rate…which would be sub optimal when starting with just a few quarts.

Oh come on now, I’m not advocating running your engine on two quarts of oil, even though it will. I’m just saying adding a cup of oil is silly. 

[Danb]

On 7/15/2024 at 4:06 PM, Shadrach said:

When I broke in my steel cylinders, we did an oil change at just over 5hrs. Oil consumption was normal after that. Something weird is going on and it does not necessarily have anything to do with your break in procedure.

Mine followed as your Ross at about 5 hours I changed the oil my oil usage was low and still is a year later, all temps great CHTs around 295-315 I’ve worried lately from not using oil.  Mine is a Continental only difference. I’d talk to engine rebuilder regarding the oil in the bottom…good luck

D

[TheAv8r]

On 8/3/2024 at 1:54 AM, GIIIPilot said:

My engine runs better after cleaning the plugs but after a short while, runs rough at low RPM. I sent my borescope pictures to Savvy Aviation and this is what they said:

1. Rings not gapped, need to revisit the overhauler and or the installing mechanic to determine if ring gap was indeed checked on install of the cylinders. If not, they should have been. Finding mechanics/shops installing cylinders without correct rings or mostly not checking ring gap. (or ring position)

2. Breakin was not good and the cylinder walls glazed over. Was not very apparent in first dark photos but looks like this might be the case now. Walls are dark, valleys are dark.

Here is a picture of a typical cylinder wall. You can see the oil pooling in the upper portion of the picture.

Interesting, I've never heard of dark walls indicating glazing. I can see what they mean on the rings as it looks like there's scraping on the sides in that pic. Thanks for sharing the picture.

[GIIIPilot]

5 hours ago, TheAv8r said:

Interesting, I've never heard of dark walls indicating glazing. I can see what they mean on the rings as it looks like there's scraping on the sides in that pic. Thanks for sharing the picture.

I am hoping it's not glazing. I will be pulling off a cylinder on Thursday with my mechanic to take a closer look. Hopefully we find a smoking gun. 

[TheAv8r]

15 hours ago, GIIIPilot said:

I am hoping it's not glazing. I will be pulling off a cylinder on Thursday with my mechanic to take a closer look. Hopefully we find a smoking gun. 

Please let us know what you find! Any pictures are appreciated as well

[TheAv8r]

Just an update there for those tuning in: At 48hrs SMOH and the oil consumption has been 1 qt/5hrs for the last 20 hours . CHTs have not changed whatsoever since the first flight. Every flight has been at 75% power. I have done 3 additional WOT runs since, including a 2000ft 2hr WOT run and it has not seem to make a difference. There is oil showing up on the left nose gear door that I believe may be blow-by from the crankcase breather. We plan to do a compression check and borescope again soon. I have an IFR flight coming up soon where an approach may have to be shot at lower power, I've put off all IFR ops waiting for it to hit 50hrs but it's getting hard to avoid that as we get into the fall months.

[EricJ]

11 minutes ago, TheAv8r said:

Just an update there for those tuning in: At 48hrs SMOH and the oil consumption has been 1 qt/5hrs for the last 20 hours . 

That's not bad, especially if it's consistent.    I think it took mine a hundred hours or two before it settled down.    It's been 6-7 hours/qt since then, which is pretty typical, so you're not far off.