New Engine vs Overhaul

[T. Peterson]

I have a 1979 231 with the TSIO 360 LB.  ( I sure wish the Rocket STC was still available!!!) The engine is coming up on 1500 hours. It’s serviceable, but tired. It has also been in the plane since 1991. 
The cost of a new engine from Continental is over 81,000.00. Lead time is 65 days.

The cost of an exchange engine from Western Skyways is a little over 55,000. The lead time is at least 16 weeks, and probably longer due to the shortage of cylinders. However that’s not a huge deal as I don’t have to send in my engine and will continue to fly until the exchange engine is ready. What I definitely don’t want to do is take my plane out of service by sending my engine out for overhaul having no idea when it will come back.

My question of the forum, is do you think a new engine is worth 26,000.00 more than an overhaul? When factoring in the sales tax it will be even more.

Thanks,

Torrey

[PT20J]

Hardly ever makes sense to buy a new engine. What's the lead time and cost on a factory rebuilt engine?

[Fly Boomer]

44 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

do you think a new engine is worth 26,000.00 more than an overhaul?

"New" certainly has a nice ring to it, but Western Skyways also has a very nice ring.

[T. Peterson]

50 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Hardly ever makes sense to buy a new engine. What's the lead time and cost on a factory rebuilt engine?

Factory rebuilt is 76000.00. The lead time is the same as for the new. They will also overhaul my engine for 51000.00 plus installation labor, airport fees etc, but the kicker is that the lead times then become as uncertain as anyone else’s.

[exM20K]

You could find a core, buy it, and have Gann/Powermaster/Western Skyways/whoever build it up and pickle it.

Then you can swap on your schedule, not the o/h shop’s.

last I heard, continental was 12 weeks out on oh/exchange for the common engines, which is not too bad. 
-dan

[LANCECASPER]

51 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

I have a 1979 231 with the TSIO 360 LB.  ( I sure wish the Rocket STC was still available!!!) The engine is coming up on 1500 hours. It’s serviceable, but tired. It has also been in the plane since 1991. 
The cost of a new engine from Continental is over 81,000.00. Lead time is 65 days.

The cost of an exchange engine from Western Skyways is a little over 55,000. The lead time is at least 16 weeks, and probably longer due to the shortage of cylinders. However that’s not a huge deal as I don’t have to send in my engine and will continue to fly until the exchange engine is ready. What I definitely don’t want to do is take my plane out of service by sending my engine out for overhaul having no idea when it will come back.

My question of the forum, is do you think a new engine is worth 26,000.00 more than an overhaul? When factoring in the sales tax it will be even more.

Thanks,

Torrey

A couple of thoughts. . . The Western Skyways is an overhaul. The Factory New or Factory Rebuild is built to "new" standards. (https://vref.com/news/whats-the-difference-between-an-aircraft-factory-rebuild-engine-overhaul#:~:text=According to the AOPA%2C “There is little operational,in proportion to the cost of the engine.”)

Does the Western Skyways engine have new Continental cylinders? 

You can save roughly $7500 on a Factory Rebuilt (provided there's one available) instead of a factory new  https://www.airpowerinc.com/tsi0360lb1br

(In theory a factory rebuild or factory new should have the same tolerances)

 

Is your engine burning or blowing a lot of oil? What does the oil analysis look like? When you say it's tired - is the compression low (even for a Continental)? Is it making full power?

[T. Peterson]

7 minutes ago, exM20K said:

You could find a core, buy it, and have Gann/Powermaster/Western Skyways/whoever build it up and pickle it.

Then you can swap on your schedule, not the o/h shop’s.

last I heard, continental was 12 weeks out on oh/exchange for the common engines, which is not too bad. 
-dan

The core is an issue with most rebuilders, but apparently not W.S. They will build me an engine but the issue is cylinders. The 12 week lead time you mention is now 16 weeks minimum. At least that’s my impression from various conversations.

[T. Peterson]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

A couple of thoughts. . . The Western Skyways is an overhaul. The Factory New or Factory Rebuild is built to "new" standards. (https://vref.com/news/whats-the-difference-between-an-aircraft-factory-rebuild-engine-overhaul#:~:text=According to the AOPA%2C “There is little operational,in proportion to the cost of the engine.”)

Does the Western Skyways engine have new Continental cylinders? 

You can save roughly $7500 on a Factory Rebuilt (provided there's one available) instead of a factory new  https://www.airpowerinc.com/tsi0360lb1br

(In theory a factory rebuild or factory new should have the same tolerances)

 

Is your engine burning or blowing a lot of oil? What does the oil analysis look like? When you say it's tired - is the compression low (even for a Continental)? Is it making full power?

As you noted, the price difference between Remanufactured and new is about 7500.00, but the difference between Remanufactured and Overhauled is 21000.00!!
My engine has leaked oil since I bought it and in spite of hundreds of dollars spent changing hoses, thru bolts, pushrod seals etc she just continues to leak. Last oil analysis was high in nickel. Blackstone said they thought that indicates worn valve guides. Other than that she runs beautifully and is an easy start even when hot. But I think the time is here to at least order an engine and I am really leaning towards Western Skyways even if they can’t get cylinders for several months.

[LANCECASPER]

16 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

As you noted, the price difference between Remanufactured and new is about 7500.00, but the difference between Remanufactured and Overhauled is 21000.00!!
My engine has leaked oil since I bought it and in spite of hundreds of dollars spent changing hoses, thru bolts, pushrod seals etc she just continues to leak. Last oil analysis was high in nickel. Blackstone said they thought that indicates worn valve guides. Other than that she runs beautifully and is an easy start even when hot. But I think the time is here to at least order an engine and I am really leaning towards Western Skyways even if they can’t get cylinders for several months.

The reason for the difference in price being that every part on your engine that is within legal tolerance can go back in the engine on an overhaul. (Buying a Western Skyways overhaul you are getting whatever the tolerances were in someone else's engine.) The parts on a factory rebuild have to meet new specs and it comes with a new zero time logbook and a 2000 hour TBO. Unfortunately it doesn't take many new engine parts any more to total $21,000.

The labor you pay to remove and reinstall will be the same. The engine mounts, hoses, baffle seals, and whatever else it will need will be the same. When you sell the airplane a factory engine will have additional value. $21,000 difference sounds like a lot but over the long haul most of the time you get what you pay for.

[pkellercfii]

Had Western Skyways overhaul—rebuild, really, my TSIO-360-MB ~14 years ago. I’ve been happy with it. More details available upon request, as they say. Back then, and probably still currently, WS overhauled to new limits, thus their overhauls are more correctly referred to as rebuilds. Read their terms carefully. In the meantime, Aviation Consumer has published two engine overhaul customer satisfaction surveys. In both surveys, factory engines, all of new, remans and factory overhauls were ranked near the bottom in customer satisfaction. As discussed, be aware of current lead times.

 

—Paul Keller

 

[LANCECASPER]

You might ask @Greg Ellis what his experience was with Western Skyways.

[EricJ]

20 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

As you noted, the price difference between Remanufactured and new is about 7500.00, but the difference between Remanufactured and Overhauled is 21000.00!!

Tolerances for new and overhauled are different, with "overhauled" allowing more slop.   "Remanufactured" doesn't have a definition in the regs, but "rebuilt" describes an engine that meets "new" tolerances but may have used parts in it.   So "rebuilt" and "new" both meet "new" tolerances and will be the most expensive.

 

[Ragsf15e]

Make sure you compare like services.  New/reman usually comes with all new accessories (fuel servo, alternator, mags, etc).  Overhauls maybe some, maybe not.

[T. Peterson]

I very much appreciate all of your thoughtful responses. I will be re-reading all of them before making a final decision. Thank you so much for your input.

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The Western Skyways is an overhaul. The Factory New or Factory Rebuild is built to "new" standards

If the information in this article (I don't know where it came from) is still correct, the factory rebuilt engine is put together from piles of parts salvaged from other engines.  Even though the parts are within limits, there is no history of where the parts came from.  Western uses the term "remanufacture" because everything is back to new limits.

OVERHAUL vs REBUILD vs REMAN (Western Skyways).pdf

 

[exM20K]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Make sure you compare like services.  New/reman usually comes with all new accessories (fuel servo, alternator, mags, etc).  Overhauls maybe some, maybe not.

100% agree.  Turbos and exhaust systems, too.  overhauled turbos are now $6500 and up.  Times 2.

An engine shop will probably do whatever you (reasonably) tell them to with respect to new vs w/in limits parts and accessories.  This, to me, is a big advantage with a quality field overhaul - If major accessories are new-ish, you're not throwing them out.  The factory makes them one way only.

-dan

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

100% agree.  Turbos and exhaust systems, too.  overhauled turbos are now $6500 and up.  Times 2.

An engine shop will probably do whatever you (reasonably) tell them to with respect to new vs w/in limits parts and accessories.  This, to me, is a big advantage with a quality field overhaul - If major accessories are new-ish, you're not throwing them out.  The factory makes them one way only.

-dan

It can possibly work the other way too - if all your accessories are old and run out, then factory maybe makes more sense instead of adding in oh of each individual accessory.

[Fritz1]

find out if Western Skyways will redo the valve guides and valve seats of the factory new cylinders, a lot of overhaul shops do, if Western Skyways does that for the quoted new limits price, there may be your answer

[Missile 300]

14 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

I have a 1979 231 with the TSIO 360 LB.  ( I sure wish the Rocket STC was still available!!!) The cost of a new engine from Continental is over 81,000.00. Lead time is 65 days.

The cost of an exchange engine from Western Skyways is a little over 55,000. The lead time is at least 16 weeks, and probably longer due to the shortage of cylinders. However that’s not a huge deal as I don’t have to send in my engine and will continue to fly until the exchange engine is ready. What I definitely don’t want to do is take my plane out of service by sending my engine out for overhaul having no idea when it will come back.

 

13 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Factory rebuilt is 76000.00. The lead time is the same as for the new. They will also overhaul my engine for 51000.00 plus installation labor, airport fees etc, but the kicker is that the lead times then become as uncertain as anyone else’s.

You mention Rocket Engineering.  On the Rocket 305 and Missile 300 conversions they used Factory Rebuilt Continentals in the conversion unless an owner demanded New.

Here is how Air Power Inc. describes Factory Rebuild in a post on Beechtalk a couple years ago.:

Can you define differences between overhaul and rebuilt exactly?

Sure. First, let me say that there are some fantastic overhaul shops out there, but all are not created equal. Some overhauls use more new parts than others, some focus on new limits while some focus on overhaul limits, it is a lot less controlled. But again, there are some really good shops out there. To name a few, Ly-Con, Pinnacle, Tim's, Poplar Grove, etc...

Here's why we sell so many rebuilt engines:

-A rebuilt engine can only be done by the OEM. It comes with a new, zero timed log book and new serial number.
-A factory engines includes all latest product improvements, all engineering changes, all service letters, all service bulletins, all service instructions and all airworthiness directives.
-On the aircraft sales side, we see a boost in resale value with a factory engine.
-Even on a rebuilt, the majority of the parts going into the engine are new. They are all OEM, no aftermarket.
-No core surprises. The price you pay for the engine is the price you pay. As long as you send your core back in a condition where it could be run, with the same equipment that came on the new one (example if the new/rebuilt comes with a turbo, you return a turbo), there are no up charges or pricing changes.
-If you plan ahead, you have less downtime. Fly until your new engine is ready.

Here are a couple articles from our website:
https://www.airpowerinc.com/eleven-reas ... ry-engines
https://www.airpowerinc.com/top-twelve- ... -power-inc

_________________
Darryl Taylor
General Manager, Air Power, Inc.
dtaylor@airpowerinc.com

 

[jlunseth]

I went through this last year, or should I say the last two years. Bought a new engine from TCM. The price difference between Reman and new was small, as I recall the 7500 someone mentioned is about right. Not stated so far is that you get all new peripherals with a new engine. So, for example, are you going to simply take the old alternator off and put it back on the reman or rebuild? The alternator, and especially the coupler, are a weak point in the engine and you really need to replace those. One of the things I have liked about the new engine is that the alternator is much better than what we used to have on these engines. The old alternators would not charge at an idle speed of below about 1100 rpms, so taxi was always at that speed or higher. The new alternator charges down to 900 something. On the other hand, the 12 weeks someone mentioned does not fit my experience. We ordered the engine from TCM in early 2022 and it was supposed to be delivered in about 8 months. Planned ahead so the new engine would be there when the next annual was due. TCM then went through the crankshaft weight AD in 2023 which did not affect the 360LB except that TCM was tearing down Cirrus engines for months. So actual delivery was a year after the order. The aircraft went out of annual in April so I flew it to the shop and it sat until the very late new engine showed up. Then of course the engine needs to get installed and there will be gremlins in any project of that magnitude. If I had it to do over again I would have done a field overhaul with a reputable overhauler. Also, the new engine price is net of your core trade-in, in other words you don’t pay 81k and get a 20k core value. You pay 81k. 

I do like the new engine. CHTs are cooler, the new alternator is nice, etc. But the aircraft was out of service for nearly all of 2023. Here in MN, it is not easy to fly a 231 from November to April because of icing conditions, so of course, the aircraft went into the shop late March-early April and then sat all summer waiting for the engine and then the install, and then came out in December when it was difficult to fly again.

Maybe it was just my experience, but service has been awful especially on large projects needing skilled labor, since the pandemic. Expect a painful experience.

[natdm]

11 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

One of the things I have liked about the new engine is that the alternator is much better than what we used to have on these engines. The old alternators would not charge at an idle speed of below about 1100 rpms, so taxi was always at that speed or higher. The new alternator charges down to 900 something.

I.. always just thought that was an issue with my plane. This is common? So happy to know. @jlunseth when you had the "high speed taxi" alternator, how did you keep to an acceptable taxi? I tend to just tap the brakes periodically, and occasionally accidentally ride them. 

[jlunseth]

Let me put it this way. I flew with one of the Mooney PPP instructors once who also flew a 231. He asked, “Do you ride the brakes or watch the lights flash?” I immediately knew what he meant, do I taxi at low idle and watch the annunciator telling me “Low Volts” or do I keep the RPMs and therefore the amps up and ride the brakes. The answer in my case was that I would keep the amps up and periodically brake to keep the taxi speed somewhat acceptable. In the first year I had my aircraft I had incandescent landing lights. I was doing some night pattern work and was pulling past the little shack that served as the Thunderbird FBO at the time when I over leaned the engine and it stalled. I could not restart. The combination of slow taxi and the draw of the incandescents had depleted the battery in the space of about an hour of pattern work. Several of the instructors came out to push me in. I remembered that, hence my fast taxi way of doing it. Also, I had incandescent strobes. I learned not to switch the strobes on before firing up the engine or there might not be enough juice for the engine. I actually researched whether the strobes are required by the regs to be on before engine start, when I went for my Commercial checkride, and provided what I found to the examiner and told her why I would not be switching the strobes on until the engine was running. To this day, STROBE is the one item in red in my checklist, so that I remember to switch the strobes on immediately after the engine is running. I now have LEDs all around and these things are not an issue any more.

The new alternator provides plenty of current during taxi. Nice to have.

PS Yes, the problem is/was common to the 231. At one point Mooney tried installing a 100 amp alternator to cure it, in place of the standard alternator which I think was around 75 amps. The 100 amp had no effect because the problem was that the direct drive gearing would not turn the alternator fast enough at low idle, regardless of the max amperage of the alternator.

[natdm]

41 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Let me put it this way. I flew with one of the Mooney PPP instructors once who also flew a 231. He asked, “Do you ride the brakes or watch the lights flash?” I immediately knew what he meant, do I taxi at low idle and watch the annunciator telling me “Low Volts” or do I keep the RPMs and therefore the amps up and ride the brakes. The answer in my case was that I would keep the amps up and periodically brake to keep the taxi speed somewhat acceptable. In the first year I had my aircraft I had incandescent landing lights. I was doing some night pattern work and was pulling past the little shack that served as the Thunderbird FBO at the time when I over leaned the engine and it stalled. I could not restart. The combination of slow taxi and the draw of the incandescents had depleted the battery in the space of about an hour of pattern work. Several of the instructors came out to push me in. I remembered that, hence my fast taxi way of doing it. Also, I had incandescent strobes. I learned not to switch the strobes on before firing up the engine or there might not be enough juice for the engine. I actually researched whether the strobes are required by the regs to be on before engine start, when I went for my Commercial checkride, and provided what I found to the examiner and told her why I would not be switching the strobes on until the engine was running. To this day, STROBE is the one item in red in my checklist, so that I remember to switch the strobes on immediately after the engine is running. I now have LEDs all around and these things are not an issue any more.

The new alternator provides plenty of current during taxi. Nice to have.

PS Yes, the problem is/was common to the 231. At one point Mooney tried installing a 100 amp alternator to cure it, in place of the standard alternator which I think was around 75 amps. The 100 amp had no effect because the problem was that the direct drive gearing would not turn the alternator fast enough at low idle, regardless of the max amperage of the alternator.

Every sentence on here has taught me something. 

[M20F]

I am not delving into the whole IRAN, TBO, TSMOH, etc. debate (other than IRAN).  I will say both the lead times are suspicious at best. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/24/2024 at 10:20 AM, jlunseth said:

Let me put it this way. I flew with one of the Mooney PPP instructors once who also flew a 231. He asked, “Do you ride the brakes or watch the lights flash?” I immediately knew what he meant, do I taxi at low idle and watch the annunciator telling me “Low Volts” or do I keep the RPMs and therefore the amps up and ride the brakes. The answer in my case was that I would keep the amps up and periodically brake to keep the taxi speed somewhat acceptable. In the first year I had my aircraft I had incandescent landing lights. I was doing some night pattern work and was pulling past the little shack that served as the Thunderbird FBO at the time when I over leaned the engine and it stalled. I could not restart. The combination of slow taxi and the draw of the incandescents had depleted the battery in the space of about an hour of pattern work. Several of the instructors came out to push me in. I remembered that, hence my fast taxi way of doing it. Also, I had incandescent strobes. I learned not to switch the strobes on before firing up the engine or there might not be enough juice for the engine. I actually researched whether the strobes are required by the regs to be on before engine start, when I went for my Commercial checkride, and provided what I found to the examiner and told her why I would not be switching the strobes on until the engine was running. To this day, STROBE is the one item in red in my checklist, so that I remember to switch the strobes on immediately after the engine is running. I now have LEDs all around and these things are not an issue any more.

The new alternator provides plenty of current during taxi. Nice to have.

PS Yes, the problem is/was common to the 231. At one point Mooney tried installing a 100 amp alternator to cure it, in place of the standard alternator which I think was around 75 amps. The 100 amp had no effect because the problem was that the direct drive gearing would not turn the alternator fast enough at low idle, regardless of the max amperage of the alternator.

Haha that brings back memories. I chose riding the brakes rather than watching the lights flash. I had a 231 from 1993-1996 and could count on a new set of brake pads every year at annual.