Looking at a 68 Mooney M20F

[mmcdaniel33]

I did.  We did a basic prebuy.  No showstoppers on the 2 hour inspection.  We did find two screws into the main spar done by the folks who redid the interior.  My A&P (experienced Mooney CFI and A&P) was not sure if that was an airworthiness item or not, but was concerned.  The nose gear had been turned too sharply and was "significantly" damaged.  I would be glad to send you his full report.  All in all, a nice plane.  For me though, was the fact that it has  not flown in 3 years, is missing 20+ years of logs and the paint was significantly more sun damaged than I thought.  The plane will fly with bad paint, but my wife WON'T!!!

 

Jerry and family are exceedingly nice folks, but not airplane people.  There were unwilling to further discount their already lowered price further..  I did not know about the missing logs until the day before I went up there.  All in all, two many question marks and the paint lost my much preferred spousal support for a Mooney.

 

Like I said, send me an email and I'll send you the report they A&P did.  mmcdaniel33@gmail.com

[Flyler]

28 minutes ago, mmcdaniel33 said:

I did.  We did a basic prebuy.  No showstoppers on the 2 hour inspection.  We did find two screws into the main spar done by the folks who redid the interior.  My A&P (experienced Mooney CFI and A&P) was not sure if that was an airworthiness item or not, but was concerned.  The nose gear had been turned too sharply and was "significantly" damaged.  I would be glad to send you his full report.  All in all, a nice plane.  For me though, was the fact that it has  not flown in 3 years, is missing 20+ years of logs and the paint was significantly more sun damaged than I thought.  The plane will fly with bad paint, but my wife WON'T!!!

 

Jerry and family are exceedingly nice folks, but not airplane people.  There were unwilling to further discount their already lowered price further..  I did not know about the missing logs until the day before I went up there.  All in all, two many question marks and the paint lost my much preferred spousal support for a Mooney.

 

Like I said, send me an email and I'll send you the report they A&P did.  mmcdaniel33@gmail.com

Hello sir- I sent an email.  A copy of the report would be fantastic and I couldn't thank you enough!

[MikeOH]

@Flyler

Personally, when I was shopping I would have walked from this one.  Like mmcdaniel's wife, the paint would have been a 'no go' for my wife, too  (New paint is $15K and up)

If the missing logs were far enough back (over 20 years) that probably wouldn't have been a show stopper.

Fixing the bent nose gear is going to be pricey!  You need to get a solid estimate on that cost BEFORE you proceed; especially if the seller is going to further discount.

But, the MAIN reason I would walk is the THREE YEARS not flying.

[Flyler]

Yeah the paint is a tough one for me.  Hangar space around here seems to start at $800, but I do need to look a bit harder.  I figured I would be reserved to leaving it on a tie-down, getting the note paid off, then maybe close my eyes and pay for a paint job and a hangar after 5 years or so. Still not sure how things will shake out.  I feel awful leaving something outside- I own a Harley and they basically turn to a bowl of rusty dust if a water droplet touches them 

I went down to see this plane.  I agree on the OP's comments regarding the (now) owner and his wife.  Both extremely friendly and pleasant people.  I am probably the worst person to judge, but I do feel that the asking price is a lot considering the "unanswered questions" as noted, and asking prices of other Mooneys online.

This is the first Mooney I have sat in and yeah... I am now hooked.  Back seat had more than ample room for our needs.  Now I need to see if the same is true for the M20E.  I'm not sure if it was just that initial Mooney fascination or if this one was particularly suited to me.  Loved the color, interior, choice of avionics.  It being a 45 minute drive away helps too.

I'm going up to see a M20E model and I think I will put this Plainville Mooney on my list to revisit.  If they are flexible on the price it seems like a great airplane, pending a really thorough inspection.  I think the listing, like many internet ads, is a bit too optimistic in terms of exterior condition.  It is absolutely a great looking aircraft but its more like "great condition considering its age" and not "great recently restored condition".  Perhaps it was a lot better in 2021 when it was first parked out there.

[MikeOH]

If this was the first Mooney you've looked at, then you are very wise to put it aside and check out others.  It is important, in my view, to get a sense of what the market is offering by seeing what planes look like in person and at what prices.  Yeah, I know they are sold all the time 'sight unseen'; but I don't feel that's the best plan for a first time buyer.  I looked for an embarrassingly long time and at a lot of aircraft before my purchase.  And, while I don't recommend my agonizingly slow approach, I did know a 'good plane' and a 'good deal' when it came around.  In fact, I missed out on two good purchases by NOT being ready to strike; I liked what I saw and 'went home to think about it'...and the plane was gone when I called back after a day!  Have the money ready to go when you find 'the one'!

[mmcdaniel33]

Amen to being ready to strike.  That's how I snagged my wonderful Warrior, by being ready and it being local!!

[mmcdaniel33]

^{MikeOH, the A&P suggested to the family that they consider at least trying to claim that on their insurance.}  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, mmcdaniel33 said:

^{MikeOH, the A&P suggested to the family that they consider at least trying to claim that on their insurance.}  

@mmcdaniel33

Interesting idea!  I suppose it would depend upon establishing that the damage occurred when the policy was in effect.  Has an appropriate policy been maintained since the owner passed if the damage was after?  Any statute of limitations on claims?

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, Flyler said:

I'm going up to see a M20E model and I think I will put this Plainville Mooney on my list to revisit

Remember that the pilot seat (at least) may not be all the way back once you get in.  With the seats all the way back, there is essentially zero room for back-seaters, but usually that's not how you fly.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Remember that the pilot seat (at least) may not be all the way back once you get in.  With the seats all the way back, there is essentially zero room for back-seaters, but usually that's not how you fly.

I fly my C in the middle of three holes. But there's significant "free slide" that the seat has to move forward to the first hole. My 5'3" wife cannot touch the pedals with the seat pulled forward to the first hole. She move further when someone sits in back.

[mmcdaniel33]

I dd not know the status of the insurance other than the insurer knew the original owner had died and it was owned by his estate.  The insurance was in effect still.  The concept was that since it had not been flown for 3 years and was only moved by the on field shop that perhaps they would cover it.  Who know??

 

[mmcdaniel33]

FYI, it is currently listed at $106,500 but they accepted my initial offer of $101,500.

[jetdriven]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:26 PM, mmcdaniel33 said:

I did.  We did a basic prebuy.  No showstoppers on the 2 hour inspection.  We did find two screws into the main spar done by the folks who redid the interior.  My A&P (experienced Mooney CFI and A&P) was not sure if that was an airworthiness item or not, but was concerned.  The nose gear had been turned too sharply and was "significantly" damaged.  I would be glad to send you his full report.  All in all, a nice plane.  For me though, was the fact that it has  not flown in 3 years, is missing 20+ years of logs and the paint was significantly more sun damaged than I thought.  The plane will fly with bad paint, but my wife WON'T!!!

 

Jerry and family are exceedingly nice folks, but not airplane people.  There were unwilling to further discount their already lowered price further..  I did not know about the missing logs until the day before I went up there.  All in all, two many question marks and the paint lost my much preferred spousal support for a Mooney.

 

Like I said, send me an email and I'll send you the report they A&P did.  mmcdaniel33@gmail.com

I would think that screws going into the main spar web  need to be addressed before saying that are OK.  And it’s kind of like an AD you need to positive confirmation it’s not going to be a problem because you may end up having to replace a lot of expensive stuff to fix the problem.

Edited April 1 by jetdriven

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:26 PM, mmcdaniel33 said:

Jerry and family are exceedingly nice folks, but not airplane people.  There were unwilling to further discount their already lowered price further..  I did not know about the missing logs until the day before I went up there.  All in all, two many question marks and the paint lost my much preferred spousal support for a Mooney.

I would never consider doing a pre-buy evaluation until I had thoroughly combed through the logs. If this is your first airplane pay someone a few hours of their time to go over the logs compared with the FAA records, ADs, Service Bulletins, etc. People who have looked at many logs will pick up on things that an enthusiastic potential buyer will miss completely or justify.

What's in the logs sometimes isn't nearly important as what isn't in the logs. You'll also see trends - such as the same person doing a minimal annual after just a few hours year in and year out. When you get to see it in person you can get a good idea if recent annuals have actually been done or if they were logbook annuals. If it has had meticulous maintenance that's worth paying a premium for, even though there will still be some things you have to catch up on in the first year or two. If it has had minimal maintenance it can very well be a money pit and turn into a project instead of a flying airplane. If the logs pass the smell test and you go to see it and have a pre-buy, while your mechanic is looking for showstoppers, just evaluate how much pride of ownership there was, how they cared for it. I never get in the mechanic's way, but I'm there so he can point out things as he sees them. If the exterior and interior are ratty you can be reasonably sure that pro-active maintenance was unlikely. There are exceptions to that, but very few. People who cut corners usually do it across the board. The nicest airplanes sell fast and for a premium for good reason - they will be the least expensive to own in the long run.

[mike_elliott]

this ^^

Laura Casteele at SWTA will go over "ze papurwerk" for a reasonable price IMO. This is particularly important on older airframes. She can intercept things like 25 year old bladders/sealant etc. that will be a soon to deal with maintenance item in addition to making sure all of the AD's on all the equipment is legal etc.

If it gets past her, and you still have the itch, schedule an Annual/prebuy.

 

[Pinecone]

6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I would never consider doing a pre-buy evaluation until I had thoroughly combed through the logs. If this is your first airplane pay someone a few hours of their time to go over the logs compared with the FAA records, ADs, Service Bulletins, etc. People who have looked at many logs will pick up on things that an enthusiastic potential buyer will miss completely or justify.

This is important.  Also, someone to act as a consultant to guide you through the process and keep your emotions in check.

I used Byron ( @jetdriven ) in my quest.  He taught me a lot and kept me away from a couple of planes with issues.

[jetdriven]

5 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

this ^^

Laura Casteele at SWTA will go over "ze papurwerk" for a reasonable price IMO. This is particularly important on older airframes. She can intercept things like 25 year old bladders/sealant etc. that will be a soon to deal with maintenance item in addition to making sure all of the AD's on all the equipment is legal etc.

If it gets past her, and you still have the itch, schedule an Annual/prebuy.

 

Old tank sealant is one thing, but I don’t see a thing with 25-year-old bladders. The ones in my plane are  33 years old and I just had  Griggs do the add on kit which required removal of the outboard bladder to install a nipple, and those things still look like new.  The thing about old tank, sealants, is if it’s not leaking right now, don’t expect a discount. Sellers don’t even want to pay for things that are  broken much less things that are old and nearly worn out and may give out at any time. But generally, if you see a plane with a whole page of this stuff, it’s better to just buy a nicer plane.

[mike_elliott]

Byron, thats great your getting that life out of them. Like all rubber like products, they tend to dry out and deteriorate, unless griggs figured out something all the race bladders, hoses, O rings etc havent. 30 years is borrowed time for sealant or bladders. If they have, heck, warranty them for 33 years and put the debate to rest!

 

[jetdriven]

On 4/1/2024 at 4:04 PM, mike_elliott said:

Byron, thats great your getting that life out of them. Like all rubber like products, they tend to dry out and deteriorate, unless griggs figured out something all the race bladders, hoses, O rings etc havent. 30 years is borrowed time for sealant or bladders. If they have, heck, warranty them for 33 years and put the debate to rest!

 

On 4/1/2024 at 4:04 PM, mike_elliott said:

Byron, thats great your getting that life out of them. Like all rubber like products, they tend to dry out and deteriorate, unless griggs figured out something all the race bladders, hoses, O rings etc havent. 30 years is borrowed time for sealant or bladders. If they have, heck, warranty them for 33 years and put the debate to rest!

 

Perhaps the fact they are  3/16 of an inch thick and they’re  inside of a enclosed cavity has something to do with it. Maybe they’re made with the same rubber that my mechanic has on his Thunderbird the tires are from 1974 and you know what he’s still driving it. That and they’re not supposed to be left empty. But I don’t see how that really compares with a millimeter of poly sulfide sealant. But anyway, let’s just look it outcomes, this board and the Internet is full of owners that had to have their tanks resealed (Willmar is booked out for two years, solid)  but I haven’t yet seen anybody with a bladder that started leaking and had to be replaced. I’ve heard of a set of loose clamps, but no outright failures, and Griggs hasn’t heard of them either.  
theoretically, they degrade over time but in actuality we haven’t seen one fail yet.  When we make a statement like borrowed time, it’s usually backed up by data that shows an increasing pattern of failures.   But we need data for that I think.  Turban engines run across the ocean and back and they put 30,000 hours on them between overhauls. But they have a continuous airworthiness monitoring program, and when the graph turns upwards, they pull it.

it’s kind like the whole anti-roller camshaft thing. Oh gosh, those things ain’t no better than flat lifters, it’s the same thing…..you have 5% of the fleet every year replacing engines for spalled  camshaft and nobody’s turned up a bad roller lifter yet. 19 years of service now.  
but I’m with you, though, nothing lasts forever, but sometimes stuff lasts a lot longer than we initially think it would. 
 

Edited April 3 by jetdriven

[carusoam]

The problem with buying a nice M20F…

It becomes near impossible to NEED a plane upgrade between now and forever…

 

even the Acclaim has four seats, and is only a small amount faster than the M20F… and won’t carry much more weight…  it does carry a lot of volume though….

Acclaim’s turbos are nice, but the M20F has been turbo normalized a few times around here…

 

I used planned obsolescence… we got the M20C when the kids were tiny.   The tiny kids were sure to grow, and a decade later we were hunting for the next Mooney….

 

for proof… see doc John’s (nicest M20F ever) post above….  
 

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

On 4/1/2024 at 5:04 PM, mike_elliott said:

Byron, thats great your getting that life out of them. Like all rubber like products, they tend to dry out and deteriorate, unless griggs figured out something all the race bladders, hoses, O rings etc havent. 30 years is borrowed time for sealant or bladders. If they have, heck, warranty them for 33 years and put the debate to rest!

 

I think if you polled vintage owners with Brittain equipped aircraft, you would be surprised how many well preserved, air tight, vacuum servos are still in service after 5 decades. It’s not that I am avoiding maintenance. On the contrary, I have a stack of replacement servos bagged on the shelf that I procured in anticipation of a failure. It’s yet to happen. I’m not saying they don’t dry out eventually. I am saying that high quality rubber that is unexposed to UV and high heat can last a very, very long time.

[carusoam]

Heat

UV

oxygen

 

Three enemies of polymeric materials…

hard to avoid O2, but…

 

Saran wrap is a multi layered polymer film that has a layer that is mostly impenetrable to oxygen…

Saran is designed to keep O2 away from your lunch meats…

and works pretty well at preserving other things as well…

A layer of EVOH is the O2 barrier in the center of the structure…

pp thoughts only , not an organic chemist…

Best regards,

-a-

[Flyler]

I was fortunate enough to get the contact information of a local CFII and Mooney pro, Rob Takacs, from the OP of this thread.  I'm not sure if he's a member on this forum but would not be surprised as he is a Mooney owner.  At any rate, although I have no Mooney and have not received any instruction from him, he is an excellent resource.  So I am thankful to the OP for the inspection report, but more for the intro to Rob.  Looking forward to getting a plane and getting some transition training from him.

[Flyler]

So, the sellers have accepted my offer for this bird and we are moving forward.  I did try to take everyone's great advice from this forum- looked around at a handful of other Mooney's, didn't immediately fall in love with the first one I saw (but that did happen later.)  I also had some very sage advice- if you need to stretch the budget a bit, within reason, it is well worth it.  This does feel like it will suit my current mission and likely be the only plane I'll ever want or need!  I was not expecting to end up with anything that had a GPS or autopilot, and was expecting a very ratty interior that would need to be redone. 

The sellers were willing to come down on the price, quite considerably actually.  I think that since I am local and would be keeping the plane in the vicinity, and visiting the same A&P, it was a bit of a comfort to the seller.  There is a lot of sentiment tied up with the planeand my wife and I are both sensitive to that fact.  It also has a few items that need to be addressed and will cost a bit up front.  That's OK with me as my PPL checkride isn't until June 10th.  Currently at 80 hours, will probably cross the finish line around 90.  Then I have Mr. Takacs lined up to give me some transition training in the Mooney, and perhaps IR as well.

We don't have the keys yet but I'm still in a bit of shock/excitement as I can't believe this is happening!  Woohoo!  Thank you everyone for your help along the way!

[Lax291]

Congrats and good luck with the new adventure!  Also, GL with the check ride in June, how long is the wait now?  Last year it was about 2 months from initial call to check ride date.  Is it with Daryl by any chance?  

One thing that almost bit me was the requirement from the insurance company to have a CFI who had at least 25 hrs in the specific model Mooney.  I had a local instructor lined up, coincidentally it was Mr. Takacs, but couldn't move forward with him as he didn't have enough J hours to meet the insurance requirement.  

Just one thing to check if you haven't already to make sure things go as smoothly as possible for you.  Was also just reading an article on the new hangars ready to open at KOXC, they look nice!