My IFR6 Experience (it wasn't good)

[Tim-37419]

This is a strange story and I know you guys will smack me down if you think my expectations were out of line, so here it goes:

 

I had a rather bizarre experience at IFR6. IFR6 is a school that specializes in immersive IFR training and other endorsements / ratings for pilots.

IFR6 has a one-week IFR program that culminates with a check ride. I did my cross country 2 days before the check ride and was not happy with my proficiency. The school is in Charleston and I had failed to consider the implications of December weather in a city on the coast. My skills were not up to par with the wind and turbulence. That is 100% on me.

The day after my cross country was the last day before my check ride and I noticed I was 8 hours short of the 40 needed for a check ride. I do feel that part of what I was paying for was the school managing my time but I’ll take responsibility and say that is also 100% on me for not keeping up on my hours throughout the week.

I had asked what a path to success looked like the morning before my check ride and the response was, we would fly off the 8 hours today. It was another day of 20 to 30 knots at 3000 ft and my head was not in the right place to receive instruction.

I asked to come back for my checkride prep and checkride but that got a quick denial. We spoke for about 20 or 30 minutes and I was being pressured to stay and was offered to return in Feb or Mar for my checkride. For some reason, the longer we were in the conference room the more contentious it became. But why - I wrote IFR6 a $6,500 check and had not asked or implied I wanted any money back.

I declined the delayed checkride, put on my coat and left. I was walking to the FBO to leave and never to be heard from again. This is where it got even stranger.

On my walk to the FBO, my CFII calls me and asks to have a few pages out of my syllabus. These were pages that we had both initialed indicating training received.  I can’t put my finger on why, but I had become suspicious. I told the CFII that I would think about it. 

After entering the FBO, I got another call from one of the people who runs the place. I told her, I was talking to the lady at the FBO desk and to give me a minute. She hung up on me and immediately drove down to the FBO. She confronts me at the FBO desk, demanding the papers and stating that they had to be turned in to the FAA (I’ve already spoken to the FSDO, there is nothing to turn in to the FAA). I again declined handing them over and that they were already in my plane. She then loudly (I’m not easily embarrassed) proclaims that I have her property in my plane and demands access to the ramp. The FBO denied her access and assured me no one would be given access to my plane. It was so bad, I took my phone out of my pocket and was about to call 911. I knew that would just escalate the situation and decided instead to disengage. The IFR6 person then offers to refund my checkride fee ($500) in return for the pages. I still decline.

Fast forward a couple days, I’m now home and the CFII texts me to say he needs the papers in order to get paid. That’s much different than “they have to be turned in to the FAA”. I continue to decline.

I still don’t really know what was/is going on or what happened. I was polite and cordial, never contentious. All I wanted was to return for checkride prep and a checkride. The way IFR6 treated a customer who had written them a large check a week prior was despicable. 

 

As tempting as it is, go somewhere else.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you want to get the CFII in trouble, call the FSDO they are attached to and say they checked off skills you were not proficient with. 
 

Is it possible they already filled out the application for the checkride claiming that you were ready for the checkride before the training was complete?

I haven’t taken a checkride since 2016 so I’m a little foggy on the process.

BTW,  I give you a thumbs up for bailing on the program if you were falling behind. IFR is too important to cut corners.

[N201MKTurbo]

It is one thing to offer a rating for a fixed price, but a fixed schedule with no accounting for weather delays is crazy. While training in high winds and turbulence is great experience, it isn’t the best environment for teaching skills and procedures. That sort of thing is something you want to ease into after you have perfected your skills.

[Ragsf15e]

I also give you kudos for bailing out.  I agree totally with what @N201MKTurbo said above. Sorry about your $$. I think 6 days to actually become proficient in ifr is overly optimistic.  In my experience, a couple hours per day fills up your brain and you need a rest before being able to properly receive more instruction.

[Marc_B]

How many hours did you fly there, and how many hours did you log in their sim? Looks like they may have a full featured redbird sim? Curious what was on the pages they wanted? What made you feel like you needed to refuse to give them back? Could you have taken a picture and given them back?

In general there is a HUGE difference between being ready for a checkride and being truly IMC proficient. I like the idea of dedicated time and day after day building on lessons. But I would imagine that an accelerated course isn’t for everyone. Would make sense to know in advance with course what your backup plan is if the training isn’t going as expected (wx, illness, not “gelling,” etc.)

Hopefully you’ll find a local CFII to help you finish. Having a local instructor would be great for future IPC, refresher flights and to have a local resources for questions you’ll most certainly have in the future. I’d also recommend IFR magazine. I’ve really enjoyed it since getting my IR. 

[Ragsf15e]

I hope they logged all the instruction you actually received in your logbook…

[Tim-37419]

Since I'm not sure about my next steps, I will be careful with my responses. Thank you to all who have chimed in. I will finish locally for sure. 

 

Yes, there is inclement weather plans.

I came with 9.5hrs, did about 22 hours more with them, half sim and half in my plane. 

I could have copied the pages. They would have gotten them had they asked when I was still in the sim office... but they forgot, then proceeded to burn the bridge while I still had something they wanted. The pages are just tables with tasks and each of our initials in a "complete" box.

 

Yes, I have the logbook endorsements and the FSDO said I don't have to worry about them being revoked in any way. 

[dkkim73]

All of that seems pretty concerning to me. Intensive training should IMHO still be dependent on each student. 

Has anyone here used PIC (Professional Instrument Courses)? https://www.iflyifr.com/

I used their textbook during my training which I found extremely cogent and thoughtful despite it's relatively short length (I'd already done ground school with the Jepp Textbook but this covered all the academics very practically as a review). I thought I would consider them if I ever went for this type of refresher training. 

Maybe a resource if you want something else to finish up. I would think you would want to view that original school with a lot of skepticism. 

HTH

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, Tim-37419 said:

This is a strange story and I know you guys will smack me down if you think my expectations were out of line, so here it goes:

 

I had a rather bizarre experience at IFR6. IFR6 is a school that specializes in immersive IFR training and other endorsements / ratings for pilots.

IFR6 has a one-week IFR program that culminates with a check ride. I did my cross country 2 days before the check ride and was not happy with my proficiency. The school is in Charleston and I had failed to consider the implications of December weather in a city on the coast. My skills were not up to par with the wind and turbulence. That is 100% on me.

The day after my cross country was the last day before my check ride and I noticed I was 8 hours short of the 40 needed for a check ride. I do feel that part of what I was paying for was the school managing my time but I’ll take responsibility and say that is also 100% on me for not keeping up on my hours throughout the week.

I had asked what a path to success looked like the morning before my check ride and the response was, we would fly off the 8 hours today. It was another day of 20 to 30 knots at 3000 ft and my head was not in the right place to receive instruction.

I asked to come back for my checkride prep and checkride but that got a quick denial. We spoke for about 20 or 30 minutes and I was being pressured to stay and was offered to return in Feb or Mar for my checkride. For some reason, the longer we were in the conference room the more contentious it became. But why - I wrote IFR6 a $6,500 check and had not asked or implied I wanted any money back.

I declined the delayed checkride, put on my coat and left. I was walking to the FBO to leave and never to be heard from again. This is where it got even stranger.

On my walk to the FBO, my CFII calls me and asks to have a few pages out of my syllabus. These were pages that we had both initialed indicating training received.  I can’t put my finger on why, but I had become suspicious. I told the CFII that I would think about it. 

After entering the FBO, I got another call from one of the people who runs the place. I told her, I was talking to the lady at the FBO desk and to give me a minute. She hung up on me and immediately drove down to the FBO. She confronts me at the FBO desk, demanding the papers and stating that they had to be turned in to the FAA (I’ve already spoken to the FSDO, there is nothing to turn in to the FAA). I again declined handing them over and that they were already in my plane. She then loudly (I’m not easily embarrassed) proclaims that I have her property in my plane and demands access to the ramp. The FBO denied her access and assured me no one would be given access to my plane. It was so bad, I took my phone out of my pocket and was about to call 911. I knew that would just escalate the situation and decided instead to disengage. The IFR6 person then offers to refund my checkride fee ($500) in return for the pages. I still decline.

Fast forward a couple days, I’m now home and the CFII texts me to say he needs the papers in order to get paid. That’s much different than “they have to be turned in to the FAA”. I continue to decline.

I still don’t really know what was/is going on or what happened. I was polite and cordial, never contentious. All I wanted was to return for checkride prep and a checkride. The way IFR6 treated a customer who had written them a large check a week prior was despicable. 

 

As tempting as it is, go somewhere else.

So as it stands you are out part of what you paid for, and they are out the papers that they want or need and if he's telling the truth,  the CFI needs the papers to get paid for his instruction.

Since at this point you probably don't want to go back, why not work something out where you get reimbursed for the portion of what you paid for but haven't received and they get what they want or need and you can use those funds toward completing your training elsewhere?

EDIT: Also it seems like you wanted to come back later and take the check ride and they refused to let you do that, but then later offered that option and then you refused, but at the end it seems like that's all you wanted. 

 

[PeteMc]

My two cents is that something is going on.  And I'd hate to shut down a business just because for some reason one person got really poor service.  But there seems to be a lot more going on here.  

So what do the CFIIs here or possibly owners of training facilities that have a better insight think the next step(s) should be....  Should he ignore them and move on, or is this really one of those times he should give the local FSDO a call?  (Or maybe not that FSDO, but his FSDO so it makes its way through the FAA with a paper trail?)

 

[FlyingDude]

16 hours ago, PeteMc said:

just because for some reason one person got really poor service. 

Is he the one person who got poor service or the umpteenth person who finally spoke up?  Of course there’s always 2 sides to any story, so we might be siding with our fellow mooniac or maybe he's really onto some shady business. 

In Europe you have your own syllabus booklet which contains the lesson plans that you get copies of and has a final grading on some facets for each lesson (piloting, situational awareness, improvement as I recall) which the cfi compiles at the end of each lesson and both of you sign the box. So if you score 2/4 on a lesson, your repeat that, with the same CFI or another one... That, along with your logbook and additional paperwork go to the equivalent of the fsdo, they scrutinize everything deeply, and then you can request the written and check ride... The closest I got to this in US was when I was handed out a printout with all my ground and flight lessons during my commercial which I signed for receipt and that was it... I have sent students to check rides in US and have taken check rides but I wasn't aware of anything that goes to the fsdo. It's all in the iacra. 

Dunno. I would call the fsdo and have them pay a visit. If everything is in order, they'll be fine. If they were doing shady business... Then they go away... 

Please read easa ops and aip-Italia if you want to see how torturous flight training and execution can become. Faa cfrs are really relaxed. Shouldn't be a problem to follow them (barring honest mistakes, of course)...

[dzeleski]

I almost went to the same school but after doing some research these stories pop up more often than I would like to see. I decided to just stick with my instructor at home and work around his schedule. 

The other thing that has been apparent with some of these accelerated schools is that they are teaching you the bare minimum, not what you really need in the real world. This is especially true if you fly for yourself rather than to get a job flying. So many CFIs at these schools are clueless as to how someone would actually fly in the real world that it’s painful to listen too. I’m not shocked that the ball was dropped somewhere.

Personally if this happened to me there would’ve been a lawyer involved the second I had some lunatic follow me into an FBO and threaten to enter my property without authorization. That’s not just crossing the professional line that crosses the psychotic line.

Id seriously consider a cease and desist and I would find a trusted well reviewed private CFII to finish your rating with. I’ll never walk into another 141 school again because of all this crap.

[toto]

The accelerated schools are trying to do something that’s very difficult to do well - give 40 hours of instruction adequate to pass a practical test from zero in five days. So they all think they have a magical secret sauce that they use to make it happen, and they’re protective of their syllabus - a high level view of the magic. 

I think it’s all a little bit silly, but I appreciate that these schools exist, and they definitely have a place. They work particularly well for someone who has had a course of instruction from another school or instructor and just can’t quite seem to get it done - having five days of very intense focus can be just the thing to get across the goal line. 

For whatever it’s worth, I have heard very good things about GATTS from attendees. 

https://www.gatts.org/

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, toto said:

For whatever it’s worth, I have heard very good things about GATTS from attendees. 

 

I used GATTS and was very happy with the training I received, in fact it was probably the best training I have had in all of my flying.  I don't know if they still use this technique (I got my IR about 20 years ago, when vacuum gyros were prevalent), but they covered the Attitude Indicator for the entire training, so pitch information came from the Altimeter, and roll information came from the Turn Coordinator.  All practice approaches and the full Checkride were flown with partial panel.  It really gave you confidence that you could safely handle real partial panel if needed.   They also used simplified methods for Procedure Turns.   All of their training methods were about simplification and safety.  Another thing that impressed me is that the CFIIs were not kids building hours toward an ATP and airline job, but were very experienced and effective instructors who enjoyed instructing.  I went back to GATTS to get my Commercial ticket.

[vorlon1]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:58 AM, Ragsf15e said:

I also give you kudos for bailing out.  I agree totally with what @N201MKTurbo said above. Sorry about your $$. I think 6 days to actually become proficient in ifr is overly optimistic.  In my experience, a couple hours per day fills up your brain and you need a rest before being able to properly receive more instruction.

Agree wholeheartedly with the above. One also needs some time to integrate what you have learned. 

Many studies have also shown that (at least when I was in grad school) for best retention and learning, lessons should be limited to 50 minutes.

[FlyingDude]

I wouldn’t ditch accelerated programs as a whole.  A European buddy of mine with EASA ATP (they call it ATPL) and 6000 hrs in Gulfstreams and turboprops did an accelerated CTP to get his FAA ATP. In such cases, I think it saves people money, by reducing accommodation costs and time off from primary job. But otherwise, neither too sparse nor too frequent lessons work for those who need to learn brand new skills from scratch. 2-3 lessons a week is a sweet spot for most. The duration of the lesson depends on the matter at hand (maneuvers vs XC) and the student’s mind/body prep (sleep, food, health, stress, etc )…

[kortopates]

As a very active CFI, I’ve never been a fan of accelerated training for the instrument ticket. The commercial is perfect for it and many experienced pilots can pull off the commercial maneuvers in a weekend. But not an instrument rating in a week or 10 days and learn enough instrument survival skills. Of course people still do it and those that do and are wise enough to treat only as license to learn will probably do fine. But IMO Instrument training shouldn’t be limited to just flying approaches and holds. IMO it’s essential to ensure every one gets lots of actual IMC flown partial panel, in lots of less than VFR weather while learning about weather first hand and is mentored in aeronautical decision making.

As an example of the pitfalls of accelerated training, years ago here on Mooneyspace we all learned about a new pilot that purchased a J model then got a 10 day instrument ticket just in time to fly to Jackson Hole for a wedding. He signed up for the training just to be able to make the trip IFR as he figured correctly he would need it. The pilot made a lot bad choices on his return trip that got himself and two of his kids killed exceeding the capabilities of both the plane and pilot.


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[Browncbr1]

Hey guys, I haven’t been on here in forever, but saw Tim’s post and thought I would chime in.   
 

imho, these schools that have these ‘accelerated’ programs should just call them what they really are; rubber stamps.  I’ve heard too many times of schools that ‘have their own DPE’ with a wink and a nod.   Sounds like a conflict of interest to me and a total lack of fiduciary.  It smells like the papers they wanted implicate them.

[toto]

2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Hey guys, I haven’t been on here in forever, but saw Tim’s post and thought I would chime in.   
 

imho, these schools that have these ‘accelerated’ programs should just call them what they really are; rubber stamps.  I’ve heard too many times of schools that ‘have their own DPE’ with a wink and a nod.   Sounds like a conflict of interest to me and a total lack of fiduciary.  It smells like the papers they wanted implicate them.

For whatever it’s worth, I did an “accelerated” course for a seaplane rating, and through a series of unfortunate events, the in-house DPE was not available for a checkride at the end of my course. I ended up having to book a checkride with an unaffiliated DPE about 100 miles away, and I passed what I felt was a very fair and reasonably comprehensive checkride. When I looked over the course syllabus and compared with the ACS, I thought they did a nice job of covering all of the required training and used my time efficiently. 

To be fair, I’m a CFI, and I care a lot about self-education and proficiency, and I did a lot of work outside the course to prepare myself. But I did pass a checkride after an accelerated course with an unaffiliated DPE

 

[Schllc]

I attended the IFR 6 program as well, it’s been 8 or so years. Their behavior sounds really odd from what you have shared. 
My experience was good overall, but I think I came much more prepared. I had 100% of the time and then some, required for my check-ride.  
I had flown about 100 hours with a CFI or safety pilot, about 80 of those were under hood or actual IMC. 
When I read all of the syllabi from the four of five programs that I looked at, they all seemed to intimate, to me anyway, that you really should come with all the requirements met, so my flying skills were prepared for the most part but procedurally I was still learning my g1000, and task saturation was still a struggle. I had just received my ppl about 3 months from my IFR checkride.   If I had one complaint, it was that I was very specific about needing help with the g1000 and they didn’t tell me the sim was avidyne which didn’t help a ton,  but I got it all in the plane anyway. 

The intense simulator and flight training was all procedure and repetition. We flew to four or five airports in the area and did a lot of approaches, holds, circle to land, etc. and since the airports were so close it was rapid fire.
Eight hours in one day with your experience would have been exhausting. 
Hard to really judge from what little we know if he signed off or skills he thought you were progressing enough to perform, yet you had some concerns.  Both valid scenarios. 
I felt competent when I left, but I suspected the real training begins after your ticket, and that turned out to be true.  None of us are “completely” prepared when we get our ticket, don’t they say it’s a license to learn?  There is no substitute for experience. 
I don’t see how a “mill” approach would even work, the DPE would sort that out pretty quickly.  

[201Steve]

I did 10 day IFR and boy was it a pile of work. I did nothing for 10 days but fly, eat, sleep. It really wore me out. This is one where they come to you and you put up their instructor locally. 
 

my experience was not great, I failed my first ride, but….. I would probably do it again. I got the gist of it down, went back to re hone the skills with a local instructor for a few flights, got it done. Someone like me with a very busy non-aviation work/life schedule, it made it much simpler to hammer out a lot in a little. Since then, getting the checkride out of the way, I have slowly worked to increase skills. Not shooting to mins or long time IMC right off the rip. 
 

that being said, my experience with the similar company was not good either. It’s a lot to dish out and all instructors are not the same!

[donkaye]

How time flies!  Next month it will be 30 years of flight instructing for me.  During that time I've been through a lot of instrument trainings.  The fastest I've done an accelerated training has been 8 days.  The student was one of the best I've ever had.  He was also 26 years old.  From my experience age does make a difference in regards to the instrument rating.  Younger people seem to have an easier time with it.  The flight instructor makes all the difference in how a student progresses.  Unfortunately, many are just too judgmental.  Perspective for me has made things better for students.  By that I mean by having poor instruction in several instances in the past myself, I can usually see what is holding someone back from progress. 

With the new modern avionics instrument training has become almost too easy.  Building a consistent instrument scan used to take at least 8 hours.  With the modern PFD, where all instruments can be taken in and interpreted with a single glance, that time has been reduced by several hours.  Gone are the days of ADF training and its complications.  Dive an drive for all practical purposes is a thing of the past even with LNAV approaches flown with the latest GPSs that provide either glide path or advisory glide path.  Even analog approaches like VOR can be flown with GPS providing primary lateral and vertical guidance with the actual VOR being monitored.

With poor instruction, both ground and air, I had a hard time with holding patterns.  With proper training they are so, so simple to both visualize and fly.  I can now teach them in a couple of hours.  Same thing with DME Arcs.

I like talking to ATC.  They listen to people all day long and can tell the pros from, well, those who have not taken the time to become proficient on the words of the AIM.  Only several times in all my years of flying have I ever been denied a request.  How you speak determines whether they can "trust" you with an unusual request.

Many times the Instrument Rating is a life changing event.  I've seen several people's personality change.  I've seen timid people become more assertive at the end of the training.

All of this is to say: 1. If you are older, expect there could be some challenges.  The proficient instructor, who has been through this before should take that in stride and not berate you for not "getting It" faster.  2. The instructor makes all the difference in the world. One who encourages will get the job done; one who doesn't needs to be fired.  3. Modern avionics does make the rating easier.

My advice is to not get discouraged, find a local "experienced" instrument instructor who is a "Professional" flight instructor (not part time) and finish the rating with "casual urgency", if that makes sense.

[Htmlkid]

I completed the IFR6 course about a year and a half ago and the staff was amazing. 5 days into the course I had a flap retraction issue that did not allow me to complete the last day and they were very accommodating on scheduling me the following month after I had the repair completed. I passed my course and have nothing but praise for the staff. It was very challenging with 10 hour days most of the time and then study time when I got back to the hotel. I would highly recommend them to anyone. AOPA has a review of their course and gave them a good review.