'67F vs '97J ...

[DCarlton]

Contemplating my future again for the flying years I have left.  Currently flying a '67F with J mods with a low time engine; insulation has been upgraded.  It's grounded waiting for parts.  If I were to fly a '90s or newer J (there are a few for sale now), could I tell the difference in terms of noise, performance, airframe handling or the tightness of the controls?  For those that have had the pleasure of flying older and newer, could I tell the difference?  Trying to decide if I should put more money into what I have and make it as nice as possible or trade to something newer.  Don't really want the maintenance of a turbo, have the need for a longer body, or desire the fuel burn of a six cylinder.  Want to keep maintenance as minimal as possible but enjoy the time I have left in something nice.  Thoughts anyone?   

[Echo]

I could of bought a newer J after parting ways on a Missile, but a modded E was better for my mission and will perform at or better than a J.  The ability to have an over the top panel and interior is available.  No unupdated J interior or panel doesn't look dated and worn after 25+ years.  I say enjoy doing some upgrades on the plane you KNOW.

[MikeOH]

Juice isn't worth the squeeze.  Stick with what you have and improve how you want.

[Shadrach]

6 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Contemplating my future again for the flying years I have left.  Currently flying a '67F with J mods with a low time engine; insulation has been upgraded.  It's grounded waiting for parts.  If I were to fly a '90s or newer J (there are a few for sale now), could I tell the difference in terms of noise, performance, airframe handling or the tightness of the controls?  For those that have had the pleasure of flying older and newer, could I tell the difference?  Trying to decide if I should put more money into what I have and make it as nice as possible or trade to something newer.  Don't really want the maintenance of a turbo, have the need for a longer body, or desire the fuel burn of a six cylinder.  Want to keep maintenance as minimal as possible but enjoy the time I have left in something nice.  Thoughts anyone?   

Go fly one and report back. I’d be genuinely interested in your subjective thoughts.

[Hank]

Sometimes it's just the devil you know . . .

[kortopates]

Big difference in my opinion. The Vspeeds are far better and i like the electric gear.


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[DCarlton]

4 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Big difference in my opinion. The Vspeeds are far better and i like the electric gear.


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I do have an electric gear.  Have you seen the green J for sale based at KSEE?  It's very well equipped.  

[DCarlton]

59 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Juice isn't worth the squeeze.  Stick with what you have and improve how you want.

Since you're in CA, the biggest deterrent for me WRT moving up, has always been sales taxes and annual property taxes.  There is no escaping the squeeze.  

[MikeOH]

28 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Since you're in CA, the biggest deterrent for me WRT moving up, has always been sales taxes and annual property taxes.  There is no escaping the squeeze.  

Very true.

However, to me the biggest barrier to moving up is in the transaction costs and the very real risk of the true condition of what you are buying.  There needs to be a real motivating factor and, for me, the difference from my modded F with electric gear and a J is just not worth it.

[kortopates]

Since you're in CA, the biggest deterrent for me WRT moving up, has always been sales taxes and annual property taxes.  There is no escaping the squeeze.  

Seriously, you need to fly more! Taxes don’t even make a dent in my annual cost. Even more importantly, remember you can’t take it with you, so enjoy it while you can!


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[Red Leader]

It entirely depends on your mission. I did my research and purchased a "K" a couple of years ago because I want to take the wife on long trips. The turbo 6-cylinder purrs like a kitten and burns only about 10-11 gallons of fuel an hour. Maintenance is always going to be a priority with whatever you purchase but my ability to fly high and fast, combined with the low fuel burn (for the speed) make this choice the logical one for me. Just flew from upper Wisconsin last Monday to Birmingham in just over 4.5 hours and burned 46 gallons of fuel. Can't beat that with much anything else. Again, it depends on your mission but the "K" model is currently competitively priced to the "J" - the minor difference in the turbo and taxes would be the only concern. The climb and overall performance makes it "turbo" every time, for me.

[MikeOH]

Slightly different calculus if we are talking F to K, vs J.  I thought the OP was considering F to J?

Still, in my case, I'd have to feel like I needed to top weather to really need the K.

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Seriously, you need to fly more! Taxes don’t even make a dent in my annual cost. Even more importantly, remember you can’t take it with you, so enjoy it while you can.

Alabama tax on my C has been $200, although the valuation was raised this year. I suspect Kalifornia taxes would represent multiple flight hours more, currently $45/hour. I'd rather spend the money on fuel than give it to the tax man.

[amillet]

My 97 J is noticeably quieter than my friends 78 J 

[Echo]

17 minutes ago, amillet said:

My 97 J is noticeably quieter than my friends 78 J 

I never even thought abouttjis as a factor since advent of noise canceling headphones...

[Bolter]

37 minutes ago, amillet said:

My 97 J is noticeably quieter than my friends 78 J 

Seat can matter.  Both of my mooney's had notable wind noise through the door.  I hear a noise level difference when I have a passenger or not.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Seriously, you need to fly more! Taxes don’t even make a dent in my annual cost. Even more importantly, remember you can’t take it with you, so enjoy it while you can!


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True but it’s just pouring more money into a black hole that adds no value to the property.  I pay too much in taxes overall already.  Didn’t your aircraft property taxes almost double last year?  Really pissed me off.  We know your plane is worth more this year so we are going to take more even though you’ve owned it 20 years.  WTF.  The county is getting me for a boat and a airplane.  

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, Red Leader said:

It entirely depends on your mission. I did my research and purchased a "K" a couple of years ago because I want to take the wife on long trips. The turbo 6-cylinder purrs like a kitten and burns only about 10-11 gallons of fuel an hour. Maintenance is always going to be a priority with whatever you purchase but my ability to fly high and fast, combined with the low fuel burn (for the speed) make this choice the logical one for me. Just flew from upper Wisconsin last Monday to Birmingham in just over 4.5 hours and burned 46 gallons of fuel. Can't beat that with much anything else. Again, it depends on your mission but the "K" model is currently competitively priced to the "J" - the minor difference in the turbo and taxes would be the only concern. The climb and overall performance makes it "turbo" every time, for me.

I’ve considered a K many times.  Then I’ll see an ad where someone had an overall 400 hours ago and a top overhaul 200 hours after that and it scares the crap out of me.  I know that’s an extreme example but it seems like we hear those stories often.  It’s just too hard to get work done these days with a reasonable turnaround time.  Low maintenance is probably my number one requirement.  

[ArtVandelay]

If you plan on upgrading (new panel), the Js price range has a much higher top end so you’ll get more value when it comes time to sell.
Later Js did have more sound proofing as I recall, the fully articulated seats, etc all added to the empty weight which is why they increased the MGW.
My 78 noise level is 95+dB if the app on my iPhone is accurate, but doesn’t seem excessive to me.

[Shadrach]

On 9/10/2023 at 9:07 PM, DCarlton said:

Since you're in CA, the biggest deterrent for me WRT moving up, has always been sales taxes and annual property taxes.  There is no escaping the squeeze.  

If you want to move “up” perhaps an actual comparison of “up” is in order.

Is it faster? How much?

Does it have better climb/altitude performance? How much?

More useful load?

fit/finish and equipment are considerations but not necessarily tied to year of manufacture.

What tangible benefits do you expect? 

 

[Echo]

9 hours ago, DCarlton said:

True but it’s just pouring more money into a black hole that adds no value to the property.  I pay too much in taxes overall already.  Didn’t your aircraft property taxes almost double last year?  Really pissed me off.  We know your plane is worth more this year so we are going to take more even though you’ve owned it 20 years.  WTF.  The county is getting me for a boat and a airplane.  

Iowa has automobile registration fees that are based on the original price of a vehicle and span 10 years. I just sold a 2019 VW Arteon when I purchased my new to me M20E.  By driving a 2013 low mileage Tacoma in the winter and a 2012 boss 302 in the summer I am saving myself thousands in registration fees (over run of increased fees for decade).  You are punished for making a new vehicle purchase and you're punished for buying a used high dollar vehicle as the assessment is based on their computation of original purchase price verses what you actually paid.  It's draconian.  Iowa does a very nice job regarding registration for aircraft.  A one time registration 6% tax (capped at $5k) and a $35 annual renewal. What state you live in definitely matters, but the tax man will get you, regardless.

[KSMooniac]

I'm in the devil-you-know camp... I don't see the upside of trading a J-modded F for a newer J, especially if either suits your mission.  If it is a forever plane, then improve it how you want and enjoy the upgrades for as long as you can fly.  If you were planning to upgrade later, the J would have "more headroom" in terms of value retention on any upgrades, but it sounds like your F will satisfy you and thus you ought to keep it.  (absent corrosion or other deal-breakers!)  You can upgrade just about everything except the higher green arc speeds on the ASI and landing gear extension speeds.  Build the best custom seats you can dream of, put in the dream panel, etc.  

[DCarlton]

53 minutes ago, Echo said:

Iowa has automobile registration fees that are based on the original price of a vehicle and span 10 years. I just sold a 2019 VW Arteon when I purchased my new to me M20E.  By driving a 2013 low mileage Tacoma in the winter and a 2012 boss 302 in the summer I am saving myself thousands in registration fees (over run of increased fees for decade).  You are punished for making a new vehicle purchase and you're punished for buying a used high dollar vehicle as the assessment is based on their computation of original purchase price verses what you actually paid.  It's draconian.  Iowa does a very nice job regarding registration for aircraft.  A one time registration 6% tax (capped at $5k) and a $35 annual renewal. What state you live in definitely matters, but the tax man will get you, regardless.

All of that sounds perfect and reasonable.  CA is just wrong when it comes to boats and airplanes especially when you compare it to how they treat vehicles and your primary residence.  

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I'm in the devil-you-know camp... I don't see the upside of trading a J-modded F for a newer J, especially if either suits your mission.  If it is a forever plane, then improve it how you want and enjoy the upgrades for as long as you can fly.  If you were planning to upgrade later, the J would have "more headroom" in terms of value retention on any upgrades, but it sounds like your F will satisfy you and thus you ought to keep it.  (absent corrosion or other deal-breakers!)  You can upgrade just about everything except the higher green arc speeds on the ASI and landing gear extension speeds.  Build the best custom seats you can dream of, put in the dream panel, etc.  

This seems to be the prevailing opinion.  Appreciate everyone's input.  There's nothing wrong with my plane (other than I'm grounded in AZ looking for a prop bulkhead).  And yes it could be a lot of fun upgrading (Willmar for tanks, Hector for interior, Maxwell for some airframe work, who knows for avionics; probably someone out of state with a decent shop rate).  Just got a quote of $17,250 for a MT propeller; yikes.  Looks like $12K for a new two blade Hartzell if I were to trade in the McCauley.  Gotta get on the phone and find that backplate.  Gonna try to answer Shadrach's question too.  

[KSMooniac]

Yikes, I had no idea the MT has gotten that expensive!  I bought in 2010 for 10,500 complete and still love it.  FYI, Hartzell has a new composite version of the 2-blade Top Prop but I'm not sure it is ready for purchase yet...all the speed benefits of the metal, but dramatically lighter and smoother.  Hopefully you can find your bulkhead and get down the road a bit futher before spending big money on an upgrade.