mschmuff Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Just a head's up to anyone looking at this aircraft, I just wasted 2 months of looking, a trip to NY, 2 oil samples, 1 title search and 4 hours of a mechanic's time. I was cashier's check in hand 12 hours before going to pick up the aircraft when the title search came in. Owner claimed only damage history was a car hitting the wing when it was tied down. NTSB report has runway incursion in '76 and title search had gear up in '72......Nothing in the logbooks!! I get that the $1,000 I spent saved me from owning something that would be extremely difficult to sell among other things. I just hope this thread saves others their $1,000 and time!!! Mike EMS RW Pilot CFI/CFII RW, CFI FW Prior PA28-180 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjsny78 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'm not sure I would see a gear up 35+ yrs ago and a runway incursion a deal breaker. If it was repaired correctly it should not really be that much of an issue since this much time has past. But if the owner is hiding facts about the history then that's another issue. If it were me I would take another look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 but that's a big deal and repairs should be noted in the log book. The incidents themselves wouldn't be a deal breaker, but the lack of documentation would throw red flags IMO. of course, that may not be the current owner's fault and the plane could be great, but I would be very meticulous when inspecting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OR75 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 runway incursion would not need to be in the maintenance log (I bet it is in the FAA log for the pilot !) repairs for the gear up should be in the maintenance log. It can make you worry about whether the owner is hiding fact. However, it likely was not the same owner in 1972. Or was it ? My focus (only personal view) would be on the aircraft history since the last engine overhaul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 There should at least be a 337 on the major repair for the gear up. On the other hand you may be able to use this to reduce the selling price some more. If it was fixed right and you can get it at the right price it does not matter. It has been flyining for how many years now after the gear up. Knowing about the gear up have the mechanic give it a second look and beat the seller down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb35 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I don't think the repair for a gear-up would necessarily meet the FAA's definition of a "major repair", and even if it did, if it was repaired by a repair station a 337 wouldn't be required. Sure, it's good to know about a plane's history. However, an incident 35 years ago that may not have damaged it at all, and a 40-year-old gear up, are not exactly troublesome history. If the repairs weren't logged properly, that'd be more of a concern, but even so, a "buyer beware" thread over such a minor (and old) discrepancy is quite an overreaction, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 One thing to remember, not everything that is documented in our logbooks today was required 35-40 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschmuff Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 The runway incursion said "substancial damage"! My issue was that nothing was documented, no 337's so how do I know it was even repaired properly. Also, if that was left out, what else may be left out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I'd pass Mike.... The market is just heating up. There'll be more. Sorry you blew cash to find out. This brings up a great point about title searches. For $75 more, you get the full FAA file on the plane, usually same-day if you want to pay a little extra. Never buy without doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OR75 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 totally understand your concern. However, between a used plane that has been flying regularly in the past 40 years (I suppose it has) and a plane that was just maintained with proper log entries, I would pick the one that has been flown without problem the past 40 years. The key questions are : what did the mechanic who spend 4 hours looking at the plane had to say ? and do you trust him ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionudakis Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Current owner might not have even known about it? Do you have any copy of records to look at entries from the period when the issues occured? I have seen a "removed and replaced wing" entry buried in a page full of other misc entries. Handbuilt airplanes can be repaired by hand and be just as good as new. If a mechainc who inspected it inside and out and in detail didn't find anything, the repairs must have been done well. Being concerned about resale is understandable though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9937c Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Danb35 brings up a great point. A certified repair station ( maybe Mooney ) could have done the repairs and NO ONE that wants to get paid for the job is going to put in the logbook " repair gear up damage" or "runway incursion damage" larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabremech Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 What you'll also encounter is a logbook entry that just states work accomplished per Work Order xxxx on file at this repair station. Good luck finding out what work was accomplished even if the repair station is still in business. This doesn't mean the airplane is bad. In complete logbooks and damage history are not an automatic deduction in the value of an airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Our plane was repaired after a gear up but it has no 337. A gear up landing is not automatically a major repair. Gear doors, skins, and fairings are one thing. Changing bulkheads are another. Quote: 1964-M20E There should at least be a 337 on the major repair for the gear up. On the other hand you may be able to use this to reduce the selling price some more. If it was fixed right and you can get it at the right price it does not matter. It has been flyining for how many years now after the gear up. Knowing about the gear up have the mechanic give it a second look and beat the seller down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb35 Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Quote: mschmuff The runway incursion said "substancial damage"! My issue was that nothing was documented, no 337's so how do I know it was even repaired properly. Also, if that was left out, what else may be left out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Quote: jetdriven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJBrown Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I wish there was a way to tag certain planes so they don't get passed around one sucker to the next. In the Mississippi River Flood of 1993 N1171J was underwater over the cabin. In the next 10-12 years it changed hands 5+ times. I tried to talk to each owner to warn them. Each had experianced strange electrical problems and were glad to know the truth. The current owner has changed the N number to N30EV. He got pissed off and cussed me out for being a "busybody" BEWARE of Submarine activity!!! The person that bought the salvage from Avemco dummied the log books to hide the truth. This plane shows NOTHING on http://report.myairplane.com/ If there is no paper trail there is really no place to find the truth on this 82 231. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Besides the NTSB site and the FAA site, this is the best site to go to when shopping. http://report.myairplane.com/ When buying a plane, you have to be part historian and part detective. The logs are only part of the evidence you will use to piece together an airplane's past. the other parts are the records search and the physical inspection. As has been stated, the airframe logbook should only record work that was done, not why the work was done. Your not going to find- 3/17/76 Airplane crashed. Repairs done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
231Pilot Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I was once told that a favorite way to hide a gear up on older Mooneys was to have te "one piece" belly installed. It is a legitimate change that can make maintence easier, but it also a way to hide damaged belly skins from a gear up. I was always suspicious of short bodies that had the one piece belly after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfromiowa Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 A gear-up does NOT mean major repair. A gear-up is an opportunity to buy an updated and from a mechanical stand-point SUPERIOR airframe. For those that look at a gear-up as the Scarlet Letter...fine, I am O.K with that...move on. For those that have a good pre-buy to make sure stringers/spar was NOT impacted and inspect engine What is the worry? When I had a gear-up my plane benefitted from the following: -New LASER one piece Belly -New K overlapping nose Gear Doors -New Prop -Overhauled...esentially new Exhaust -Overhauled Oil Cooler -New belly antenna -New right inboard flap hinge -"Free" tear-down and replacement of a run-out IO-360 engine that reduced major over-haul by $10 grand Plane post gear-up overhaul had All of the above on the insurance carrier...and new hoses/engine Mounts, overhauled mags new limits engine and new harness. While I would NOT suggest a gear-up mine resulted in a superior aircraft as a result and as Jimmy G. said "Gear-Ups" are more of a marketing issue than a negative to the aircraft... I would NEVER disqaulify a Mooney because of a gear-up history...won't matter to me because I won't be selling...my kids will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschmuff Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 All great points fellas! Thanks for contributing! To be honest this damage was not a deal breaker, the fact that the guy lied about it and said the only damage was to the wing, then got pissy when the truth came out is why I walked away. If he would have been honest from the start and said "here are the facts, its been flying for 35 years since" I may have had a mechanic go over it with a fine tooth comb and bought it but my gut said if this guy lied about these two what didn't I find?!?! Thanks again - it's been an education!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Quote: aviatoreb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Bought my 70C back in 95 with 1480 hours on it, I was told It had a gear up in 71 and a right gear collapse in 83. I flew down to Texas met the owner flew it around for a half hour and landed, looked at the books for a few hours, inspected the airframe myself ( I don't trust many A&P's ) for another 3-4 hours and bought the airplane. I have owned many others but this one has been a keeper. The difference with my purchase was that the prior owner was a very straight forward and honest Texan. After spending that kinda money looking at that aircraft, then the guy lying, I would have clocked him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Quote: 201Pilot I was once told that a favorite way to hide a gear up on older Mooneys was to have te "one piece" belly installed. It is a legitimate change that can make maintence easier, but it also a way to hide damaged belly skins from a gear up. I was always suspicious of short bodies that had the one piece belly after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I also looked at a plane would'a been a trade up, didnt "need" to trade up but, would'a been nice. Plane had damage that was repaired, and looked like it was done very well, but, I couldnt find a logbook entry. I walked, I dont mind damage if it is repaired properly but one thing I wouldnt touch is a plane that has logbooks that look "too" perfect or dont have a repair well documented. I want to see a 30 or 40 year old plane that has 30 or 40 years of normal use and normal maintenance. The granny only took it to church on sunday is bullsheet, whether its a car a boat or a plane. People are human and sheet happens, if you dont see that in the logs someone is lyin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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