First time airplane owner - considering a 1964 M20E - advice?

[Schllc]

I’ll offer my two cents…

Buy the newest, most upgraded, and most frequently flown plane you can afford. 
As many have already said, the purchase price is just the beginning. 
Personally, I view the purchase as a savings account that earns no interest. 
historically, prices either remain static or increase over time so the purchase price will typically be recovered at the point of sale if the plane has been maintained. 
the cost of an airplane is in the owning and operating, not the purchase price, so buying one already upgraded saves much of this expense, and flying frequently addresses most of the smaller items. 
 

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

I don't know how many planes I'll buy in my lifetime, so I really want to love the one I own.  

Probably depends on age of the buyer, but some say "buy your last plane first".  Hard to know what the best strategy is.  Some on this forum have owned a huge number of airplanes.

[Echo]

9 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

It is amazing how much having a reliable plane (or a bag of troubles) can make you love or hate one. I owned 3 Cherokees, and I liked them all, simple and easy to operate. I kinda assume that’s what the venerable C182 is — simple and trouble free. I had a love-hate relationship with the Comanche. It was a beautiful plane, I can still remember how it smelled now, 15 years after. Flew beautifully. But the costs drove me nuts, all the time something small broke. I am glad I found a buyer for it when I did. You know what they say (usually about boat owners, but it applies to plane owners too) — the happiest two days are the day you buy her, and the day you sell. (Well, not quite. I still miss ol’ Cherokee 180, which I sold 5 months ago to buy the M20E.)

that must've been one heck of a Cherokee :-)

I flew a Cherokee 180 and then an arrow and found them competent, but just didn't love them. The Mooney just performed so much better. Your plane looks very nice. I hope it treats you well and you forget about that Cherokee.  A bunch of long cross country's where you arrive over 45 minutes faster helped me lol. 

[Yooper Rocketman]

On 8/20/2023 at 1:00 PM, ElisiumNate said:

Hey all! First time post, brand new here but totally seeing the love for Mooneys! I am a PPL (130 hours) and just finished my complex endorsement in a Piper Arrow.  I want to buy an airplane, and the speed, efficiency, and even price of the Mooney C and E models are very appealing! 

YouTube is full of showboating, so I'd like to see if I can get some real advice from real owners here about whether a M20 C, E (or other model) would be a good choice for a new airplane owner.  

Thanks for your time! 

See my PM

Tom

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Probably depends on age of the buyer, but some say "buy your last plane first".  Hard to know what the best strategy is.  Some on this forum have owned a huge number of airplanes.

Same in the car world.  I do a lot of research and pick carefully.

My youngest car is 13 years old.  Next is 21 years old.  

Also, I know myself.  I don't buy "starter" items.  I know I will be upgrading, so buy what I feel is the best.

Other friends buy a new car every 2 - 3 years.

[Fly Boomer]

4 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Same in the car world.  I do a lot of research and pick carefully.

My youngest car is 13 years old.  Next is 21 years old.  

Also, I know myself.  I don't buy "starter" items.  I know I will be upgrading, so buy what I feel is the best.

Other friends buy a new car every 2 - 3 years.

Yep.  I'm kind of a "buy and hold" guy too.

[Huckster79]

21 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Excellent feedback, and I appreciate you taking the time to say all of that! I have been thinking about this a lot lately.  I got my insurance quote, and it's high.  I want to build time, not necessarily get there as fast as possible.  I can say for sure that I'm caught up in the Mooney love-fest but I am sure it will fade as reality sets in a little more! I'm more likely to be a Piper owner due to that factors you mentioned, but, I just want to keep an open mind.  I don't know how many planes I'll buy in my lifetime, so I really want to love the one I own.  

Don’t sell yourself short too soon.l
  

 

 

I think you’ll get more bang for your buck out of the Mooney.  My insurance agent encouraged me as a 0 time retract guy go Mooney, arrow or Bonanza.  I was able to purchase the most solid plane of the three going Mooney.  Besides I fell in love w them.  I went w Avemco, they were 1000 less than my broker.  My broker had been competitive in my old tailwheel not so w retract. 
 

we don’t do GA for economics sake.  If you want to fly economically consider a flying club- honest, not snarky.  
 

I went w the F, she’s spacious as all get out as far as GA birds go, and they tend to have the best useful load.  1000-1100 lbs.  an absolute dream to operate. 
 

piper is great if you want a training class bird, and nothing wrong w tgat if it fits the mission.   If I was going fixed pitch fixed gear I’d consider them highly as they don’t seem as outrageous as the C brand prices.  
 

I love that I have the option take 4 adults and do a 3hr leg that could easily be 500miles w an hour reserve, and when I’m not in a hurry she’s happy as a lark sipping 6.5gph putting around. 
 

but it all depends on the mission… 

[ElisiumNate]

Thanks, Huckster! Every time I try to get away from the idea of buying the Mooney I find a reason to get reeled back in.  Also, I used to spend quite a bit of time in Greenville, MI.  

I got a quote from Avemco just this week, it's about $4k/year for me with my low time in type.  But, the only way to get the time is to get in the type haha.  

 

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Yep.  I'm kind of a "buy and hold" guy too.

For reference, my current cars are:

2012 Fiat 500 Abarth

2002 BMW M3

1995 BMW M3 Lightweight (collector car, one of 116)

2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee (got to have something haul stuff and knock about.)

[Pinecone]

Your mission may be to build time to start, but you will outgrow that mission.  So you need to think ahead and see what will be right for further down the road.  Unless you like flipping things.

 

[Fly Boomer]

9 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

For reference, my current cars are:

2012 Fiat 500 Abarth

2022 BMW M3

1995 BMW M3 Lightweight (collector car, one of 116)

2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee (got to have something haul stuff and knock about.)

How about a BMW 2002?  Are there any that are still road worthy?  You must like to work on cars -- I had a Fiat 850 Spider and an E3 Bavaria, and it was a constant struggle to keep up with maintenance on both of them.

[Flymu2]

I would recommend caution with this plane.

The registration expired a year ago, so it hasn't flown for at least that long. There has to be a reason why the registration wasn't renewed. This information is available on Flightaware and the FAA web site.

The equipment is nice, but, in this market, I'm suspicious that the price is artificially low. None of the other planes of similar vintage and times have nearly the equipment this one does and are priced the same or higher. That discrepancy should wave a red flag.

Full disclosure - I have been interested in this plane also. I have tried to make contact with the seller without success. Another point of caution.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

How about a BMW 2002?  Are there any that are still road worthy?  You must like to work on cars -- I had a Fiat 850 Spider and an E3 Bavaria, and it was a constant struggle to keep up with maintenance on both of them.

Modern Fiats are far more reliable than their reputation suggests.  Same can be said for BMW save for the judicious use of plastic under the hood that gets brittle and breaks with heat and time.  In my experience the weak point on any modern drivetrain is the emissions system.

[Entropy]

I’m in a very similar situation to OP, so just want to say “thanks” to all the input as well. No forum community is perfect, but this one has been very helpful to all us new flyers. Appreciate it!

 

I have pretty much settled on finding the right M20F for my mission. Now comes the time of patience and careful consideration.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

How about a BMW 2002?  Are there any that are still road worthy?  You must like to work on cars -- I had a Fiat 850 Spider and an E3 Bavaria, and it was a constant struggle to keep up with maintenance on both of them.

Typo, I have a 2002 M3

Yes, there are still some +BMW 2002 ti and tii models on the road.

I had a Fiat 850 Spider in high school and college.  Yeap, a good bit of work on them.  My 500 Abarth has been the best car for maintenance I have ever owned.  I had changed the oil, one set of brake pads all around, a few light bulbs, and that is IT.  11 year, 98,000 miles.

[Fly Boomer]

4 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Typo, I have a 2002 M3

Yes, there are still some +BMW 2002 ti and tii models on the road.

I had a Fiat 850 Spider in high school and college.  Yeap, a good bit of work on them.  My 500 Abarth has been the best car for maintenance I have ever owned.  I had changed the oil, one set of brake pads all around, a few light bulbs, and that is IT.  11 year, 98,000 miles.

By far, the most reliable car I have ever owned is my Prius.  One set of tires and one battery in 160,000 miles.

[Pinecone]

The second worst car for maintenance I ever owned was a 76 Corolla.  And that includes two 80s Dodges.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Pinecone said:

The second worst car for maintenance I ever owned was a 76 Corolla.  And that includes two 80s Dodges.

I wonder where your Corolla was made.  My Prius was made in Japan.  Maybe it makes a difference.

[Kelpro999]

I personally like this plane for a few reasons like year, useful load, performance vs cost and above all, I like to preserve and restore. Recent hours flown warnings have a lot of merit however, sometimes intervals of inactivity could mean it’s been receiving some love. But in this case telltale signs like rusted eng/prop/mix control rods , rusted elevator control brackets, hastily applied lipstick in the footwell would indicate otherwise. If it’s been outside without a cabin cover it may have frame issues. It’s giving the impression of having been a ramp queen but like I said, I like it.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I wonder where your Corolla was made.  My Prius was made in Japan.  Maybe it makes a difference.

Japan.  Back then they were not making cars in the US yet.

[ArtVandelay]

The second worst car for maintenance I ever owned was a 76 Corolla.  And that includes two 80s Dodges.

I had a 76 Corolla, SR5 if I recall correctly, I don’t remember having any issues.

[Huckster79]

14 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Thanks, Huckster! Every time I try to get away from the idea of buying the Mooney I find a reason to get reeled back in.  Also, I used to spend quite a bit of time in Greenville, MI.  

I got a quote from Avemco just this week, it's about $4k/year for me with my low time in type.  But, the only way to get the time is to get in the type haha.  

 

Wow.  I have a few more hours than you but being all vfr I didn’t think that would make such a diff! I have about 500, 400 of it tailwheel - maybe that helped.  I started out at 3400 and after doing a safety training and 25 hours in bird it dropped to like $2700… 

my figuring is that was double my Cessna 140, as I had a hot for tailwheel, and my annual is double.  So for me it was a matter of about $2500 a year hard cost diff…  and the extras that can break aren’t always much diff in cost besides the prop and gear.   
 

maybe ask Avemco when and what your breaks in price would be 

like someone said time building is great but after touring the county a few dozen times it’s nice to be able to go… being I have less into my Mooney that I would a similiar time chicken Hawk I went for it this last spring… time will tell if it was the right move but this far I love the bird, I love the steel cage around my kids when we fly, I love passing my buddies drinking less fuel than they are  

 

if ya think you’ll keep it a while get a make n model that you won’t have to upgrade from 2 years in… that may be a Mooney for you, may not be…

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Thanks, Huckster! Every time I try to get away from the idea of buying the Mooney I find a reason to get reeled back in.  Also, I used to spend quite a bit of time in Greenville, MI.  

I got a quote from Avemco just this week, it's about $4k/year for me with my low time in type.  But, the only way to get the time is to get in the type haha.  

 

I’ve used this broker for 20 years. In 2003 I checked out in my M20F with just 210hrs total time. I think they required 10hrs of dual and 5 hours solo before passengers. Insurance was $950 a year. Todays market is different indeed. We’re paying double that with over 1000 in type.

check out https://air-pros.com. They may have a better option.

[Fly Boomer]

56 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Japan.  Back then they were not making cars in the US yet.

That can't be it then.  I don't know why there would be so much difference.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I had a 76 Corolla, SR5 if I recall correctly, I don’t remember having any issues.

We had the same car.  Mine was a 76 SR-5 also.

I had carb issues.  Engine fuel pump failed.  Muffler issue (rusted closed).  Blown exhaust gaskets.  Dash plastic splitting in several places.  Burned exhaust valves.  One of the trans bearings wore out.

I think I put about 150K on it.