N9156Z Minnesota crash final report

[T. Peterson]

7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

His friend stated that the accident pilot made half-standard rate turns with the rudder  .... Turns - not small corrections.  Turns with rudder are uncoordinated.

I agree with you that he was in over his head lacking adequate stick and rudder skills.

I certainly won’t dispute that of which I cannot know, but I have never heard of using only rudder to turn other than a hovering helicopter. If for some ungodly reason this gentleman was taught such a thing it is no wonder he struggled with instrument flying. His inner ears didn’t know whether to crap or go blind.

[ilovecornfields]

6 minutes ago, DXB said:

It's worth noting diphenhydramine (Benadryl) can be detected in blood up to 48 hours after a dose and so might not have been a factor in the accident or even been used illegally per FAA guidelines.  Regardless, as an antihistamine, there are so many other cheap, effective options over the counter (OTC) with much better side effect profiles that still using Benadryl for this purpose makes zero sense.

As we head into allergy season, it's nice for hay fever cripples like me to review the current FAA guidelines on OTC allergy meds:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/media/AllergyAntihistamineImmunotherapyMedication.pdf

My suggested FAA- approved seasonal allergy OTC regimen based on personal experience and professional knowledge is as follows:

(1) first start a steroid nasal spray (FAA approved) - very effective, use it every day consistently for benefit because it has little effect with single use. It has a very safe side effect profile, even with long term daily use

(2) if that's not enough, add daily desloratadine or loratadine (Clarinex/Claritin). FAA approved, H1 receptor selective drug with minimal sedating anticholinergic side effects of diphenydramine.

(3) if that's not enough, use daily fexofenadine (Allegra) instead of (2). It's an FAA approved, more potent H1 receptor selective drug that causes minimal sedation.  Allegra-D (fexofenadine with added pseudoephedrine) is also a great option for extra decongestion and is FAA approved. You can also legally add pseudoephedrine with any of these meds to great benefit- I'd suggest the 12 hr extended release form.  

(4) if that's STILL not enough, add on daily montelukast (Singulair), which is not OTC and requires a prescription and works by a completely different mechanism. Though it's FAA approved, I'd still be careful with it - it causes brain fog in me so I can't use it - I think I'm in the minority though.

(5) If you still have prominent eye symptoms after all that, use one of the listed approved eye drop antihistamines, which are excellent.  Some are OTC like Pataday (what I use).  Just remember not to put it on top of contacts; put the drops in a few minutes before inserting contacts.  

(6) If you still have prominent nasal symptoms after all that, use OTC azelastine (Astelin/Astepro) nasal spray 1-2x/day- another topical antihistamine. It is also FAA approved and could also be used up front instead of (2)/(3) but I prefer to use a low side effect oral drug first since you can treat all the affected mucous membranes with one pill.  I also find it uncomfortably drying for my nose and so only use it occasionally when things get really bad.  

It's also worth noting that the most potent OTC H1-selective antihistamine is actually cetirizine (Zyrtec) - an excellent choice instead of (2)/(3) for the folks like me who need all the help they can get.  It causes no sedation in me but does so in some folks and unfortunately it is not FAA approved for this reason - you legally can use it intermittently but not while flying.  

Wow! You must get really bad allergies. I might also add that if your symptoms are so bad you have to use all these meds consider not flying at all because you might have a hard time clearing your ears and that can cause its own set of problems.

[DXB]

2 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Wow! You must get really bad allergies. I might also add that if your symptoms are so bad you have to use all these meds consider not flying at all because you might have a hard time clearing your ears and that can cause its own set of problems.

They're really bad in spring and fall - like starting right now - luckily my Eustachian tube dysfunction isn't that bad - and an extra spray shot of the steroids straight back toward my Eustachian tube orifice this time of year really seems to help that issue.

[ilovecornfields]

4 minutes ago, DXB said:

luckily my Eustachian tube dysfunction isn't that bad

I always wondered about that - it’s a diagnosis I try to avoid with pilots. Does that disqualify you for a medical if the FAA finds out about it? I’ve had some people get really bad disequilibrium with it so I can see why it might make them nervous.

[DXB]

7 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I always wondered about that - it’s a diagnosis I try to avoid with pilots. Does that disqualify you for a medical if the FAA finds out about it? I’ve had some people get really bad disequilibrium with it so I can see why it might make them nervous.

Good question - simple ETD alone really shouldn't disqualify anyone though I'm not sure what the FAA's stance is - it's so common, and most of us have it to some degree - merely a bit of pressure and popping with rapid altitude changes in mildest form.  By contrast, ETD causing vertigo is pretty unusual (aka "alternobaric vertigo"  which can happen with bad asymmetric ETD and usually occurs on ascent rather than descent).  Careful history and testing is important here because such symptoms can closely overlap with Meniere's disease.  Also a tympanostomy (ear tube) should be "curative" for folks with this problem though these require some maintenance and can plug or extrude from the ear drum.  Best outcome for these folks is when a small nonhealing ear drum perforation is left behind after the tube extrudes. 

[DCarlton]

On 3/24/2023 at 11:13 AM, Shadrach said:

If you have a wing leveler it sort of complicates the issue because the it will seek to hold the wings level during rudder inputs. Without it, the inside wing would drop naturally due to asymmetric lift caused by the yaw.  If the pilot or wing leveler holding wings level while inducing yaw with the rudder, they are necessarily inducing an asymmetrical AOA as the inside wing will require additional up aileron and the outside wing additional down aileron to maintain level flight.  Is it teetering on knifes edge? No...not unless done at an unusually low speed. but it's not good airmanship in my opinion.  However, in IMC an overloaded/fixated pilot steering solely with their feet could get into trouble with little margin for recovery. 

A bit of a tangent…. I’ve noticed that my ball is always a bit right.  Can’t honestly say if it’s the same with leveler on or off.  I’ve tried adjusting the roll trim but the ball stays slightly right even when seemingly trimmed.  Need to start watching closely under different flight conditions.  

[larrynimmo]

My thoughts….

I have almost 1,000 hours…I work hard at being a qualified, skilled, proficient instrument pilot.  In training and in real life have flown over 300 approaches.

yet I have never flown “right seat” as a safety pilot (or passenger) in actual imc conditions.

the thought really scares me, unless I would have full instrumentation on my side of the plane.  Can I as a safety pilot react in time to save a failing pilot?…and perhaps I get disoriented and wrongfully take over a neutrally flying plane

[Pinecone]

Try flying from the right seat VFR.  Then under the hood.  It is not a big deal.  Instructors do it all the time.

 

[carusoam]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

A bit of a tangent…. I’ve noticed that my ball is always a bit right.  Can’t honestly say if it’s the same with leveler on or off.  I’ve tried adjusting the roll trim but the ball stays slightly right even when seemingly trimmed.  Need to start watching closely under different flight conditions.  

DC,

watch how fuel level, and distribution of people in the cockpit affect the ball…

See how much you need to step on the ball to raise the wing level… to center the ball…

See what happens when you burn the fuel off from one side…

Often what causes this… the L/R balance changes, but we keep the wings level with airlerons…

it helps to have rudder trim for this imbalance… (Like the M20M being discussed)

 

a good rudder rigging… requires using right rudder in the climb, left rudder in the descent, and neutral rudder in cruise….  
 

but, is always dependent on L/R balance…

Solo flight… we usually have just the pilot’s weight off center… causing the ball to drift left of center…

Check that little trim tab on the rudder… it can be adjusted by your mechanic…  

you might want’s to put some weights in the seats… to see if you can center the ball…

But, first… see if the panel is level with hte plane being level on the ground….

Often, worn panel mounts can be the easy fix for this…  

 

Back on topic…..

 

Let’s invite @Jeff Golberg to the conversation… since he gets mentioned a few times…

Jeff had joined MS a couple of years back… left no posts, and only used his account for about a month.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[skykrawler]

10 hours ago, DCarlton said:

A bit of a tangent…. I’ve noticed that my ball is always a bit right.  Can’t honestly say if it’s the same with leveler on or off.  I’ve tried adjusting the roll trim but the ball stays slightly right even when seemingly trimmed.  Need to start watching closely under different flight conditions.  

Sounds like you not using your rudder to correct the ball.

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, DCarlton said:

A bit of a tangent…. I’ve noticed that my ball is always a bit right.  Can’t honestly say if it’s the same with leveler on or off.  I’ve tried adjusting the roll trim but the ball stays slightly right even when seemingly trimmed.  Need to start watching closely under different flight conditions.  

How is it on the ground? Not sure what your panel looks like but I had the same problem due to a sag in the panel shock mounts. Replacing the mounts squared up the panel and centered the ball. 

[DCarlton]

On 3/26/2023 at 12:53 PM, Shadrach said:

How is it on the ground? Not sure what your panel looks like but I had the same problem due to a sag in the panel shock mounts. Replacing the mounts squared up the panel and centered the ball. 

Will check.  Good idea.  Thanks.