Moonies just can't be beat!

[ohdub]

21 hours ago, EricJ said:

I thought about Aerostars for a while, but they don't fit in my hangar and my insurance guy said I really didn't want to do that, so I lost interest.   The more I've thought about light twins the more I've come to the conclusion that I like my Mooney.   I have hangar neighbors with Bonanzas, including a gorgeous A36 right next to me, and as much as I like those I think I still prefer my Mooney for bang for the buck.

That said, I'm starting to lean more toward building an RV-14.   Most of the downside of keeping my Mooney going has to do with it being more than forty years old.   

 

I flew my friend's RV 14 yesterday, all I can say is wow!

[DCarlton]

9 minutes ago, ohdub said:

I flew my friend's RV 14 yesterday, all I can say is wow!

What did you like about it?  

[zxr92]

6 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I switched to a Glasair III. Absolutely faster than the rocket, cheaper to own and operate, and more efficient. 
 

no turbo and it isn’t needed. Can be easily added if you want it. Because, experimental. 

How does the insurance rate between them?

[ohdub]

4 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

What did you like about it?  

Takeoff roll felt like it was about 200', I'm sure it was more that that, but the acceleration was way more than in my J. Climb rate was over 2,000fpm. It felt very agile, visibility with the bubble canopy is of course outstanding. The turn radius on the ground is ridiculous, it pretty much just pivots in place, which would be very helpful at my home airport that has really narrow taxiways that are closer to the runway than they should be. Overall just a really fun, fast efficient airplane that is just as comfortable flying IFR as it is doing aerobatics.

[Guest]

A friend of mine is down sizing from his RV-10 to his new RV-14.  The -14 cost him around $250K US and still has to be painted.

[Schllc]

27 minutes ago, ohdub said:

 visibility with the bubble canopy is of course outstanding. 

I think you either like the bubble or not.

I would never own a traveling machine with a bubble canopy.   
It’s hard enough to get out of the sun with a normal cockpit. 
 

[ohdub]

42 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I think you either like the bubble or not.

I would never own a traveling machine with a bubble canopy.   
It’s hard enough to get out of the sun with a normal cockpit. 
 

That's true. It was an overcast winter day when I flew it so it was fine. I used to fly gliders about 30 years ago and I do remember that being quite hot on a sunny summer day.

[KLRDMD]

7 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Yup. And there is the constant joke that the purpose of the second engine is to fly you to the crash site. Decades ago I spent time in a C-55 Baron. It was a cool airplane, and fast. But gas (for autos) was still in the cents per gallon range, probably 0.39 cents. 50 GPH because of two engines makes me shudder. 

A C55 Baron will burn 25 GPH combined, not 50. Sure you can push it to 30 GPH combined but the extra speed isn't worth it. The 50 GPH was in reference to a 56 Baron, not a 55 series. 56s have two turbocharged engines each of 380 HP. The C55 has two normally aspirated IO-520s at 285 HP each. Very different beasts.

[gmonnig]

10 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I switched to a Glasair III. Absolutely faster than the rocket, cheaper to own and operate, and more efficient. 
 

no turbo and it isn’t needed. Can be easily added if you want it. Because, experimental. 

What’s you insurance like? I have been debating a Glasair III or a Lancair 360. Since I use my Mooney as a big two seater anyways (rear seats are always folded down), I have been thinking about an experimental. I’m actually going to look at a 360 next week. $1750 a year for my Mooney isn’t bad but I’m nervous to call my insurance people on a “fast glass” plane. I’ve thought about liability only too….

[carusoam]

If speed is the goal…

1) Start with an IO550…

2) Bump it up to 310hp… for better T/O and climb performance…

3) Then add a pair of TNs, MP controllers, and intercoolers… (you have to need to fly 300nm to make economic sense of high climbs…)

4) Factory built… is important for many MSers…

5) Go Acclaim!  

6) Next step is to consider a pair of IO550s the same way…

7) economics of operations doubles… pilot requirements increase… handling an engine out during T/O is a known handful…

8) Staying with the ASEL route… turbine is the next step…

9) We have one MSer that has taken his Rocket experience to move to a Lanceair IVPT…

10) We have a few MSers that moved to the Rocket engineering based PA46T…

11) Oddly, the single engine turbine economics aren’t horrible… the OH is 2X a piston engine of the same output… but the TBO is about 2X as well…

12) Do the math carefully…

Tom has the Lanceair, Jerry has the PA46T… they both have done a lot of writing around here…

I like the Lanceair because it is a four seat machine… and pressurized…

A Mooney Mustang with a turbine conversion would be interesting… put a LB tail on it….  

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[jlunseth]

3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

A C55 Baron will burn 25 GPH combined, not 50. Sure you can push it to 30 GPH combined but the extra speed isn't worth it. The 50 GPH was in reference to a 56 Baron, not a 55 series. 56s have two turbocharged engines each of 380 HP. The C55 has two normally aspirated IO-520s at 285 HP each. Very different beasts.

I confess I was not paying for the fuel or setting the mixture, that was my uncle, I just had the yoke. But I looked at some twins when I was shopping for a plane and I was seeing 40-50GPH on most of them.

[carusoam]

Brett went with a pair of IO550s in his Beech Presidente… 

A pair of IO550s will be burning near 60gph at 100%bhp…

Partnerships start looking better… select your partner wisely…

-a-

[KLRDMD]

6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Brett went with a pair of IO550s in his Beech Presidente…  A pair of IO550s will be burning near 60gph at 100%bhp…

I have an IO-550 in my Bonanza. I burn 13 GPH in cruise. What do you burn in your IO-550 in your Ovation? It ain't anywhere near 30 GPH I guaranteed you.

[KLRDMD]

27 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I confess I was not paying for the fuel or setting the mixture, that was my uncle, I just had the yoke. But I looked at some twins when I was shopping for a plane and I was seeing 40-50GPH on most of them.

I have to admit, I've only owned seven twins (three turbo and four normally aspirated) but the most any of them ever burned in cruise is 25 GPH total and that was my Colemill Baron.

[carusoam]

10 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I have an IO-550 in my Bonanza. I burn 13 GPH in cruise. What do you burn in your IO-550 in your Ovation? It ain't anywhere near 30 GPH I guaranteed you.

At 100% bhp… T/O and climb only…. Some MSers use 30gph.

In cruise.. about 13gph LOP, just over 15 ROP… at 2550rpm… at 10k’…

 

I’m not sure how Brett operates his, or if they are TN’d…

It’s been a decade since I saw him at a fly-in in PA where he lived….  
 

Oddly, The Missile… the FF is set near 25gph by documentation… leading to high CHTs…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Canadian Gal]

My 185 has an io550 in it, that was already done when i bought it.

I flight plan for 18 gph overall, am usually 14 to 16 in cruise.

I would rather plan to burn more, and use less...than plan for less, and use more.

Rarely do I burn 18 gph overall, but I still flight plan to burn 18.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Canadian Gal

[carusoam]

16 minutes ago, Canadian Gal said:

My 185 has an io550 in it, that was already done when i bought it.

I flight plan for 18 gph overall, am usually 14 to 16 in cruise.

I would rather plan to burn more, and use less...than plan for less, and use more.

Rarely do I burn 18 gph overall, but I still flight plan to burn 18.

Interesting…

What max rpm does the 185 use for take off?

What FF does it use full throttle, max rpm?

 

Mooneys have at least five, normally aspirated, installations with various FF requirements…

• 300hp Missile
• 280hp Ovation
• 310hp Ovation
• 240hp Eagle
• 350hp Liquid Rocket (water cooled, M20L)

The engine itself has been used for 500+hp applications…

Max Fuel flow is a big part of controlling CHTs during the initial climb…

Best regards,

-a-

[Canadian Gal]

16 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Interesting…

What max rpm does the 185 use for take off?

What FF does it use full throttle, max rpm?

 

Mooneys have at least five, normally aspirated, installations with various FF requirements…

• 300hp Missile
• 280hp Ovation
• 310hp Ovation
• 240hp Eagle
• 350hp Liquid Rocket (water cooled, M20L)

The engine itself has been used for 500+hp applications…

Max Fuel flow is a big part of controlling CHTs during the initial climb…

Best regards,

-a-

Depends on the air temp and altitude, but typically i see 2600 or a bit more, maybe 2650 ...I've also seen 2500 rpm.

Take off and initially climbing out it burns 26 to 27 gph normally. Higher elevations and hotter days less.

I'm not usually interested in a quick climb unless I have a mountain close by, so i climb out at cruise climb speeds, all 3 levers full forward till around 5500 asl, then i will pull the rpm back slightly and fuel slightly but full throttle to my typical cruise altitudes of 7500 to 10500 asl and then lean it out.

Very rarely do I fly out of sea level areas. But I will say this, sea level, cool morning, and that extra buoyant salt water, she comes off quick and wants to climb like a homesick angel. Typically I take off from 1500' to 3500' asl. When home, my dock is around 2494' asl usually, give or take a couple feet depending on the time of year.

Especially if I don't leave till afternoon in the summer, and its warm out, all my numbers are down, and I can noticeably feel how long my takeoff run is. The lake is plenty large, that isn't the problem, but I do have to keep my eyes open for boats, jetskis, waterskiers, wind surfers, canoes, kayaks, swimmers etc.

My last take off from home was more like a gentle left turn run because of others. Regular users of the lake are used to the float planes, it is the vacation people who are there for a  day that i  really have to keep an eye on, they are not used to boating amongst float planes.

 

Winter time she is off floats, and the air is cold, power is up, rpm up, and fuel flow is up...its not uncommon to see 29 gph initially in winter taking off.

 

I just personally choose to block time 18 gph overall, but am usually closer to 17. Taxi, landing, etc is so low it makes up for the time spent sucking back 25 to 29 gph.

[carusoam]

Start up… about 4gph, until it warms up…

Taxi about 2gph… or less to keep from speeding…. 

The O… doesn’t experience the change in rpm like the C185…

T/O is 2700 rpm +/- enough rpm for the JPI engine monitor to notice the exceed of red line at 2700.00 rpm.   

The O probably has a small diameter prop compared to the C185, and a different rpm governor…

+1 for cold air… excellent HP, and great air density for the wings…

Use caution to not exceed recommended HP IAW the engine manufacturer… it is possible to blow heads off of cylinders… or generate cracks…

Lightly loaded… the 310hp Ovation is flying after 800’ of T/O roll…   In NJ, we use fences to keep the vacationers from wandering across the runway…   

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Canadian Gal]

50 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Start up… about 4gph, until it warms up…

Taxi about 2gph… or less to keep from speeding…. 

The O… doesn’t experience the change in rpm like the C185…

T/O is 2700 rpm +/- enough rpm for the JPI engine monitor to notice the exceed of red line at 2700.00 rpm.   

The O probably has a small diameter prop compared to the C185, and a different rpm governor…

+1 for cold air… excellent HP, and great air density for the wings…

Use caution to not exceed recommended HP IAW the engine manufacturer… it is possible to blow heads off of cylinders… or generate cracks…

Lightly loaded… the 310hp Ovation is flying after 800’ of T/O roll…   In NJ, we use fences to keep the vacationers from wandering across the runway…   

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

How much does she drink on takeoff ?

[carusoam]

3 minutes ago, Canadian Gal said:

How much does she drink on takeoff ?

By the engine documents… just over 27gph…. Close to sea level in NJ…

Some people have raised that number in steps up to 30gph for improved CHT control…

NA Mooneys typically climb full throttle all the way to cruise level…

Without enough FF at WOT… CHT control can be a challenge…

Best regards,

-a-

[Tx_Aggie]

+1 for the plane you know. I’m a 2.5 year J owner and while it would be nice to step up into something incrementally faster, I have the skeletons worked out of mine now. Most non-owners don’t think about the intangible cost of selling the bird you know and have worked out for a faster bird with unknown potential issues! But the idea of going faster is always nice to think about! 

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, Canadian Gal said:

Depends on the air temp and altitude, but typically i see 2600 or a bit more, maybe 2650 ...I've also seen 2500 rpm.

Take off and initially climbing out it burns 26 to 27 gph normally. Higher elevations and hotter days less.

I'm not usually interested in a quick climb unless I have a mountain close by, so i climb out at cruise climb speeds, all 3 levers full forward till around 5500 asl, then i will pull the rpm back slightly and fuel slightly but full throttle to my typical cruise altitudes of 7500 to 10500 asl and then lean it out.

You need to do the APS seminar and learn about the BMP (Big Mixture Pull) for running your engine.

the TSIO-360-SB in my Mooney runs about 25 - 26 GPH at full power.  And I climb at full power, max RPM, full rich.  But that is with a turbo.