Safety Pilot Time

[Cruiser]

Greg, meet Peter (co-founder of Aspen Avionics)

Peter, the guy that posted above your last one Greg.

Greg, there is no SIC time to log, if you want to log the time, (I usually don't), log it as PIC. That is the correct way.

You not need to specifically agree to who will be PIC before the flight because it is understood that as soon as the other pilot puts on the view limiting device you become responsible for the safe operations of the flight and as such you are acting as PIC but only for that time he is under the hood so your PIC time will be less than his. (That's why you were asked to go along on the flight)

[galt1074]

Cruiser,

Thanks, realized that after I posted my response to his question...oops.

One would think that this is a very common occurence considering the requirement to have a safety pilot when practicing under the hood and that there would be specific guidance on how to log that time...I mean very specific. I guess I shouldn't expect much considering how the CFRs are written.

Greg

[peter]

Greg,

Guilty as charged, but you played a great straight man.

My bird is over at AEG - and you are welcome to safety pilot with me any time if you like.  I have just under 2k C130 hours as a navigator.  Every time you boys fly over our house I tell my boys they are hearing "the sound of freedom."

If it hasnt been said already, thanks for all that you do.

Peter

[201er]

Quote: Cruiser

Greg, there is no SIC time to log, if you want to log the time, (I usually don't), log it as PIC. That is the correct way.

You not need to specifically agree to who will be PIC before the flight because it is understood that as soon as the other pilot puts on the view limiting device you become responsible for the safe operations of the flight and as such you are acting as PIC but only for that time he is under the hood so your PIC time will be less than his. (That's why you were asked to go along on the flight)

[galt1074]

Quote: peter

Greg,

Guilty as charged, but you played a great straight man.

My bird is over at AEG - and you are welcome to safety pilot with me any time if you like.  I have just under 2k C130 hours as a navigator.  Every time you boys fly over our house I tell my boys they are hearing "the sound of freedom."

If it hasnt been said already, thanks for all that you do.

Peter

[danb35]

Looks like Mike has this one covered, but here's another example that might help clarify.  If one of you flies with me as my safety pilot in my plane, you aren't PIC, I am.  Is anyone going to argue with a straight face that they are the person with "final authority and responsibility for the flight" (FAR 1.1) in someone else's airplane, when the owner is appropriately rated, endorsed, current, medical, etc.?  If you're not that "final authority", you're not the PIC, and you can't log PIC as the safety pilot.

For some reason the logging rules of FAR 61.51 seem to be very poorly understood.  It's probably at least partially because the FAA has decided to almost completely divorce the concepts of being PIC and logging PIC (though this is one of very few cases where they interrelate).

[Cruiser]

Mike, you are talking theoretically about the regulation. I was referring to the actual flight in question.

Greg..... log PIC time.

Dan, if you ask me to be your safety pilot you will be PIC for the duration of the flight we don't even need to talk about it. However, as soon as you put on the view limiting device and I become responsible for the safe operations of the flight I will be logging PIC time also since I am required to be there and I am appropriately rated. At that point you are only operating the controls, I am doing all the rest.

[danb35]

Quote: Cruiser

Dan, if you ask me to be your safety pilot you will be PIC for the duration of the flight we don't even need to talk about it. However, as soon as you put on the view limiting device and I become responsible for the safe operations of the flight I will be logging PIC time also since I am required to be there and I am appropriately rated. At that point you are only operating the controls, I am doing all the rest.

[Hank]

Quote: danb35

If I am PIC for the duration of the flight, then you are not PIC, and there's no provision of 61.51(e) that allows you to log PIC time.  Being a required crewmember and appropriately rated are necessary, but not sufficient, conditions for logging PIC time.  You do not have, unless we agree otherwise, final responsibility for the safe operation of the flight; that's still my responsibility, and you're there to help me carry out that responsibility.

To log PIC time as a safety pilot (i.e., pilot not flying), you need to be the actual, no kidding, FAR 1.1 pilot in command of the flight (that's what "acting as pilot in command" means), and have all of the appropriate qualifications to do so (rated for the aircraft, appropriate endorsements, etc.).  By contrast, you don't need endorsements to be a safety pilot--for example, you don't need a complex endorsement to be a safety pilot in a Mooney--but without it, you can't legally be PIC, and thus can't log PIC time.

OTOH, the pilot flying can log PIC time even if he isn't qualified to be PIC, so long as he's rated for the aircraft.  Thus, I could log PIC time in my Mooney before I got my complex endorsement, and I could (and did) log PIC for all of my instrument training, including the IFR XC.

Pilot Flying: Can log PIC as long as rated in the aircraft.

Safety Pilot:  Need only have a class 3 medical and appropriate rating for the aircraft; need not have endorsements or be otherwise qualified to act as PIC.  However, to log PIC, must be qualified to act as PIC, must be actually acting as PIC, and may log only the time the pilot flying is under the hood (as that's the only time he's a required crewmember).

I disagree that Greg should log PIC time, as nothing indicates that he was in command of the flight.

[galt1074]

New wrinkle for everyone. The Albuquerque FSDO says I don't log anything.

[bnicolette]

Quote: galt1074

New wrinkle for everyone. The Albuquerque FSDO says I don't log anything.

[danb35]

Quote: Hank

The safety pilot logs PIC time while the pilot is under the hood. During that time he is required crew--you cannot fly under the hood while solo!

Note that "logging" PIC and "acting" PIC are not the same activity, do not have the same requirements, and are detailed under different sections of the FARs! Idiots in DC can't write anything clearly, and this thread is evidence of that.

No "agreement" is necessary prior to the flight, other than the safety pilot agreeing to perform as safety pilot while the person flying is hooded. Both LOG time as PIC, but only the one flying is ACTING as PIC. LOGGING and ACTING are different!! One flys--he ACTS as PIC; BOTH LOG TIME as PIC because they are both required crew, and the regs say the safety pilot logs time as PIC while the pilot flying is under the hood.

P.S.--He is "in command of the flight" while the pilot flying is hooded, because conflicting traffic cannot be seen from under the hood. I hope when you are simulating IMC and your safety pilot calls out traffic, that you accept his course changes.

[danb35]

Quote: galt1074

New wrinkle for everyone. The Albuquerque FSDO says I don't log anything.

[kortopates]

Mike and Dan have it exactly right - to log PIC there must be an agreement between the two pilots who is acting as PIC, i.e., who's Captain – or the final authority before the flight begins. The Yodice’s, aviation attorney’s working with AOPA, have written and spoken much on this topic emphasizing the need to have an agreement up front in order to legally log PIC before starting the flight. Without that agreement it’s assumed that the safety pilot is not acting as PIC and therefore can only log SIC. In the specific example listed by the OP here, the logable time clearly was only SIC time since the owner was the Captain of the flight – the one making decisions and who had final authority if the two pilots didn’t necessarily agree. I could not quickly find a good reference from the Kathy or John Yodice but came across this from AOPA that summarizes it very well:

Safety Pilot

A safety pilot is required by FAR 91.109( when the other pilot is "under the hood."

The safety pilot requirements:

·         Must be at least a private pilot. (FAR 91.109[1])

·         Must hold the category and class ratings (airplane, single-engine land) for the aircraft flown. (FAR 91.109[1])

·         As a required flight crewmember, the safety pilot must have a current medical certificate. (FAR 61.3[c])

·         Must occupy the other control seat (normally, although not required, the right or "copilot's" seat). (FAR 91.109[1])

Safety pilot logging:

·         Pilot-in-command time may be logged if acting as PIC.

o    The two pilots must agree that the safety pilot is the acting PIC.

o    PIC time may be logged only while the other pilot is "under-the-hood."

o    PIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) allows certificated pilots to log PIC when acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109) under which the flight is conducted. A safety pilot is required for "hood work."

·         Second-in-command time may be logged if not acting as PIC.

o    Usually the case if the safety pilot cannot act as PIC. An example might be when the safety pilot is not endorsed for the particular airplane (such as in a high-performance aircraft).

o    SIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(f)(2) allows a pilot to log all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft under which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109) under which the flight is conducted.

 

[bnicolette]

[201er]

Right on Paul. Just one thing. I think it is possible to hand over PIC after the flight has begun FAR 1.1:

 

Pilot in command means the person who:

• 
  
  (1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
  

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

Thus it is possible for the flying pilot to be PIC for takeoff/landing and then hand over PIC responsibility to the safety pilot when he puts the hood on so that they could both log time.

What this makes me wonder though is what the "default" concept of PIC is? The above talks about "designating." When I fly with another pilot in my own airplane, can't it be assumed that I am PIC unless agreed upon otherwise?

BTW for folks who said safety pilot is responsible for safety during flight, this isn't necessarily being PIC. Safety pilot can say that he sees traffic ahead or clouds but it is still the PIC's call on how to proceed. If they bust airspace (and both pilots are equally rated), the one acting as PIC under the hood would still be to blame even though the safety pilot may have warned him. On the other hand if the safety pilot accepts PIC and they bust airspace, then it's the safety pilot's neck on the line. Acting as PIC is more than just looking out for things.

 

[xftrplt]

Quote: Bnicolette

Give that guy some oxygen, he's obviously hypoxic.  He must have just moved there from Florida and isn't acclimated yet.

You could probably ask three different inspectors the same question and get three different answers.

 

[galt1074]

Nah, don't need the time at all. It wasn't a Mooney, it was a rental Arrow II but it doesn't matter either way. I've got more time than any rating requires anyway but I just wanted to get people's perspective. I think that objective has been met and I'm going to log it in some way. Thanks for everyone's input and I'm glad you all are so knowledgeable about the regulations. It speaks well of all of you that you are a) so pationate about what you do to argue about something so trivial and so well versed in the appropriate guidance.

Greg

[kortopates]

Quote: 201er

...I think it is possible to hand over PIC after the flight has begun FAR 1.1:

 

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight. 

....

[bnicolette]

Can't you take off with the foggles on?  It is fun to practice this so long as you really trust your safety pilot.  Not a good idea to takeoff 0/0 but it is legal in part 91 operations.  

Quote: kortopates

[danb35]

Quote: 201er

What this makes me wonder though is what the "default" concept of PIC is? The above talks about "designating." When I fly with another pilot in my own airplane, can't it be assumed that I am PIC unless agreed upon otherwise?

[Hank]

Quote: Bnicolette

[kortopates]

Quote: Hank

[Becca]

I have always logged PIC as a safety pilot, never been questioned on it in multiple log book reviews.  I thought this was well established as a safety pilot puts you into the scenario where more than one pilot is required to operate the plane per regulations (e.g. VFR flight rules), since the guy under the foggles can't operate a VFR flight alone), and as a required pilot you are PIC (see FAR61.51).

Also as a general rule, when I am a safety pilot, I understand I have exactly the same responsibility for the flight as if I were flying it alone and in the left seat, and that's one thing we thoroughly prebrief before flying.

 

[201er]

Can someone confirm my understanding of the FARs that the safety pilot (assuming both pilots are private) cannot log PIC time on the flying pilot's dollar? In other words, if the safety pilot logs PIC, they gotta split the cost.

Sec. 61.113 — Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs ( through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

© A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

If the safety pilot isn't paying for the flight (in part or in whole), then the safety pilot should not act as PIC nor log PIC as it would be a violation of 61.113c. On the other hand, acting as nothing more than SIC (61.51f2), the safety pilot can log the time as SIC without paying a dime and can even be paid by the pilot for being the lookout.