CIES Fuel Sender Installation

[WAFI]

Does anyone know what a reasonable cost would be to install CIES fuel senders? Better yet has anyone installed this setup before?

I have four new senders and a new Aerologic gauge.

[ArtVandelay]

Remove access panels and interior trim
Empty the fuel tanks
Refilling tanks and calibration/verifying of fuel gauges

Changing out senders is the easy part.

[TheAv8r]

In the process of doing this now, I only have 2 senders on my E, but was quoted 10hrs of labor to do it.

[WAFI]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

Remove access panels and interior trim
Empty the fuel tanks
Refilling tanks and calibration/verifying of fuel gauges

Changing out senders is the easy part.

Did you get this done in South FL or did you do it yourself?

[ArtVandelay]

45 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Did you get this done in South FL or did you do it yourself?

Yes, I helped, didn’t actually install CIES senders, but pulled and tested factory senders and sent 2 to be overhauled.

[FlyingScot]

Just had this done on an Ovation2. A few observations: the CiES sender float rods are straight, and the OEM are bent. So when the CiES senders are inserted in the tanks they can get hung up on the protrusions in the tank if you are not careful, and in the case of the outboard senders, it's virtually impossible to install them without removing an additional inspection plate.

I had both tanks done x2 senders each. The outboard senders require the removal of the landing light to access. Wing top access panels also had to be removed (and resealed) to position those senders correctly. Interior trim had to be removed, additional wiring added, etc - all in about 25-30 hours labor.

Also, if you are interfacing freq versions with a JPI900, be sure to study the CiES installations wiring instructions carefully!

Once it's done - they work great and are super accurate/stable.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I did this exact set up at my last annual except for the fact that I only have one sender per tank.  It was maybe a 10 hour install.  The Aerospace logic gauge can be temperamental so make sure everything is grounded properly.  The gauge and the senders must be grounded to the same location, but not to the screw that grounds the sender to the fuselage.   Also according to Aerospace logic the gauge must be installed with a dimmer otherwise they don't consider it to be airworthy.  It has an internal brightness setting but that is only legal according to them for a day VFR only airplane.   

[carusoam]

Let’s invite the Ceis guy to have a look at the data collecting here…

@fuellevel (Mooney installation data, experience shared…)

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[fuellevel]

4 hrs per sender is the average in GA .  Mooneys have been an issue arm wise / interference wise , we have revisions into the FAA pending approval for going on 2 years   Soon - I hope   5 hrs per sender is a good plan 

 

Basically pre bending the arms to be more suitable.   But as we know - all aircraft are individualistic     

[rbp]

I'm gonna hijack this topic to report on how my senders are behaving

this is a letter I wrote to Ceis:

Hi Andy — 

I had CeiS fuel senders installed  along with a new G3X panel last year, in my 1998 Mooney Bravo N2154X. 

The senders were not properly calibrated on installation, so I took the back to KMQS in December to have them recalibrated.  These are graphs of the four flights that I did since then. No fuel was added between these flights.

The blue line is the left tank and the black line is indicated air speed. 

I would have expected a fairly constant decrease in fuel quantity when the left tank is selected, and a fairly flat (constant) value for when the tank was not selected. I would expect some variation en route in fuel quantity from turbulence and acceleration/deceleration as the fuel sloshes around, but these graphs vary quite widely, and in one case (graph 3, 44N - LDJ), I actually landed with more fuel than I took off with! 

It seems that as the plane decelerates, the fuel quantity seems to go up remarkably.!

The other tank shows similar anomalies.

Is this to be expected? 

Thanks, Bob

 

[jlunseth]

There was a very long thread about this as couple of years ago. I believe the OP was gsxrpilot. You might do a search. I had them installed a few years ago. As I recall it takes four senders, two per tank.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by jlunseth

[carusoam]

The IAS has a whole bunch of variation to go with it as well, doesn’t it?  (Could be normal, could be something important?)

Long Bodies get two sensors per tank…

There may be some time averaging for the Fuel level… and not for IAS.

Changes in attitude will definitely alter the fuel level readings… true for analog fuel gauges in Mooneys as well…

 

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Here's one of mine. CIES, G3X/EIS, M20J.

[rbp]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

The IAS has a whole bunch of variation to go with it as well, doesn’t it?  (Could be normal, could be something important?)

 

Well I know there’s a pitot leak (see GFC500 thread), but also none of these flights were straight cruise flights.  

[rbp]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

Here's one of mine. CIES, G3X/EIS, M20J.

This look right 

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, jlunseth said:

There was a very long thread about this as couple of years ago. I believe the OP was gsxrpilot. You might do a search. I had them installed a few years ago. As I recall it takes four senders, two per tank.

 

I think it was @Marauder or maybe they both had a thread.

 

[rbp]

Thanks!

 

my first step is to get CEIS to look at the logs and weigh in on whether the they seem normal or suspect

[rbp]

curiously, @PT20J during decelleration at the end of your flight also shows a lot of variance and then an increase in fuel qty. must be because of the nose-down attitude and then nose up in the flare and taxi

[exM20K]

If your data recorder includes pitch, that would be interesting to see.  The factory gauges on my Acclaim are very pitch sensitive, reading higher and lower with pitch up/down.  For long trips, I will often try to run one tank down to 8gallons which is where, in level flight, the low fuel annunciation illuminates.  But since that is often in a descent, it puts me back on my calculated fuel tally.

If the CIES probes are mounted in the same locations as the factory ones, how would one calibrate without leveling the plane on jacks?

-dan

[rbp]

@exM20K fuel quantity v pitch was an excellent call! I need to make a long straight and level flight with fuel switches 

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Long Bodies get two sensors per tank…

And at least some Mid Bodies.  My 252 has two senders per tank.

[PT20J]

There two types of CiES senders: The variable frequency, and resistive. The G3X EIS can be set to either, but I believe that variable frequency ones are more accurate.

The M20J has two senders per tank.

The G3X EIS should be calibrated at multiple fuel levels. Garmin recommends at least 5. Mine was calibrated in 5 gal increments.

The G3X EIS will support a two calibration curves: one in level flight attitude and one in ground attitude. It switches between them based on speed and altitude. The ground calibration curve is optional.

Skip

[Marc_B]

Another data point:  M20K, CiES, MVP-50

Note that the Savvy Y axes are not the same for both sides...Here's a steady flight with fairly linear fuel drops.  But if you look at a flight with maneuvering, touch and goes, etc the readings are much more twitchy...also those flights are typically shorter so are more zoomed with less of a fuel used range.

When I had the Cies senders installed, my shop actually had to open up the top access panel during install to bend the senders correctly to make sure they didn't bind up on sidewall support braces inside the tank.  Was already scheduled for a fuel tank reseal several months later so not that big of a deal.  I have 2 senders per tank.  I have the Monroy aux tanks but unfortunately they do not have a sender.  This is likely why Right main (BLACK LINE) is rock solid flat at top...the sender is "under water" and pinned at the top.  Whereas the Left main (BLUE LINE) is a little more twitchy when the fuel selector is on the other tank as I've burned off enough fuel  by then that this is reading level in the tank with some fluctuations with speed/attitude with altitude hold.  But the tracings do show a fairly linear drop when that tank is being used.

My main tank total capacity is 78.6 (39.3/side), plus aux 14.5gal/side.  I've found that my readings "come alive" once fuel level indicated drops below 45 gal.  This suggests that when calibrated, the shop let the fuel equilibrate with the aux tank so that it would allow data point above 39.3 gal without being pinned to the top skin.

Still need to do some fuel testing on my own to see tank levels at each amount.  I haven't quite got around to that.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, Marc_B said:

Note that the Savvy Y axes are not the same for both sides

I filed a feature request to treat fuel quantity the same as CHT -- common Y axis 

[UteM20F]

3 hours ago, Evan said:

The fuel accuracy was better however, now after ever 10-15 startups, the senders will show full on both sides even though they aren't. If I pop the senders breaker, wait a couple of seconds, and then push it back in, the correct fuel quantity shows. 

Evan, I am having the same problem.  We've only seen the problem a handful of times, and we have not resolved the issue.  I started this thread when it first happened: 

To answer a previous question, in our F that has 2 O&N bladders per wing (i.e. 4 CiES senders in total), the shop charged 20 hours for the installation and calibration.  It was calibrated at 5 gallon increments.  

We have also noticed minor fluctuations in the amount of fuel displayed, but the amounts seem very reliable.  

Although we don't like the problems, we don't regret getting the new senders.

Ute