10 degree flap extension speed limit? can't find any speeds in the Ovation POH.

[rbp]

1998 M20M landing checklist

deploy gear below 140

deploy takeoff flaps 

deploy full flaps below 110

what does the R AFM say?

[rbp]

never mind, i just found one online for S/N 29-0045:

https://www.rebay.at/fliegen/manuals/oe-kgg_m20r_ovation_poh.pdf

and it has exactly the same checklist

 

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, rbp said:

1998 M20M landing checklist

deploy gear below 140

deploy takeoff flaps 

deploy full flaps below 110

what does the R AFM say?

That's not how I read this. It starts with dropping the gear "below 140", then addresses the mixture and prop on final before backing up to the putting the flaps to Takeoff position (or Full Down below 110). Strangely out-of-order. 

This is one thing that I like about my vintage Mooney. No, two things:  flap operating speed and flap down speed is a single number, and the checklists in the Owners Manual are clear.

[GeeBee]

21 minutes ago, rbp said:

1998 M20M landing checklist

deploy gear below 140

deploy takeoff flaps 

deploy full flaps below 110

what does the R AFM say?

Ovation POH reads the same.

[rickseeman]

The item you have circled is 4 items after you are on final. How fast are you going on final?

[rbp]

1 hour ago, rickseeman said:

The item you have circled is 4 items after you are on final. How fast are you going on final?

so the landing checklist is performed to transition the aircraft configuration from the arrival segment of the flight to the landing segment, not "on final." in VFR, that would be entering the pattern. under IFR that would be at the FAF.  Its not unheard of for approach to ask for 140 to the outer marker, where, when you lower the gear, the plane will begin a 500fpm descent.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

That's not how I read this

91.9 " no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards"

if you read it differently, what operating limitation do you propose is not being complied with by using T/O (10 degree) flaps between 140 and 110?

[PT20J]

7 minutes ago, rbp said:

91.9 " no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards"

if you read it differently, what operating limitation do you propose is not being complied with by using T/O (10 degree) flaps between 140 and 110?

The operating limitations are contained solely in the Limitations section of the AFM which is the only part of the manual approved by the FAA. Mooney only lists a limitation for full flap deflection. Since (except for the 205) there is no published speed for partial deflection, one could argue that the 110 KIAS is the limit or one could argue that the limit is V_ne. I'm not sure what the FAA would say if it ever came up, but I'm betting on 110. The Mooney flaps are not that strong structurally. Put them down to the takeoff position and wiggle them. I've never found an operational need to extend any degree of flap above 110 KIAS and prefer not to stress things.

[rbp]

45 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The operating limitations are contained solely in the Limitations section of the AFM which is the only part of the manual approved by the FAA. Mooney only lists a limitation for full flap deflection. Since (except for the 205) there is no published speed for partial deflection, one could argue that the 110 KIAS is the limit or one could argue that the limit is V_ne. I'm not sure what the FAA would say if it ever came up, but I'm betting on 110. The Mooney flaps are not that strong structurally. Put them down to the takeoff position and wiggle them. I've never found an operational need to extend any degree of flap above 110 KIAS and prefer not to stress things.

my question was directed at @Hank who said 'that's not how I read this"

[FlyingScot]

20 hours ago, GeeBee said:

So my view is the 110 knots is the maximum speed for full down and there is no speed prescribed for the T/O position. Operating conservatively,  I don't move the switch to 110 knots, but it is not by definition true because there is no prescription other than full down. IOW T/O position is "unprescribed" leaving you you to "roll your own".

My vote: I have long held to this interpretation. In MAPA training recently, this was also presented as the correct interpretation. That being said, I wait to extend the first notch (T/O) until I am near or in the white arc, but I don't go into palpitations if I am a few knots above it. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

if you read it differently, what operating limitation do you propose is not being complied with by using T/O (10 degree) flaps between 140 and 110?

I read the operating limitation as being 110 knots, so anything above that is outside the limitations. 

You should have a page like this, what does yours say? "Max Flap Operating Speed" is clear and indisputable. This has authority, the associated checklists don't. 

[carusoam]

Any insight on….

• Flaps extended
• Flap extension

I seem to recall during C152 training 101…

There was part of the discussion regarding the speed while operating the flap system… and the speed at which the plane can be operated with the flaps down…

 

The M20R has a gear operating speed that is different then the gear down speed… 140kias vs. 160kias..? (From fuzzy memory, not looked up…placarded)

Have I confused things?

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Here’s a limitation to ponder…

[rbp]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

Here’s a limitation to ponder…

Ponder, whether you think  the plane will not stall at 60 with only approach flaps  at gross weight

(separately : is the white arc for MGLW or MGTW?)

[carusoam]

21 minutes ago, rbp said:

Ponder, whether you think  the plane will not stall at 60 with only approach flaps  at gross weight

There is a near complete chart for each Mooney regarding stall speeds, configuration, weight and bank angles…

And of course… power on vs. power off…

 

having an AOAi really helps with this many variables…

One thing for sure…

MGTW, full flaps, straight and level stall speed for LBs… 58kias… (?)

 

(?) indicates… taken from fuzzy old memories, not looked up in a chart…

Which leads to a discussion of all the various combinations of flaps and gear…

 

Financially, it is easy to see where the factory chose to test things… 

1) landing configuration…. Mooney chose one configuration to describe… full flaps and gear down… and MGTW? 

2) climb configuration… Mooney chose one configuration to describe… T/O flaps…

Because this is where MSers have actually run into trouble…

Most MSer disasters begin while climbing to TPA…

 

How many planes, in real life, at the end of a flight… that stall in the landing configuration… are any where near MGTW?   

Best regards,

-a-

[rbp]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

2) climb configuration… Mooney chose one configuration to describe… T/O flaps…

Do. Not. Try. To. Climb. Out. With. Full.  flaps. 
 

you will be disappointed 

It’s not just a huge amount of drag, but also the sight picture

[carusoam]

3 minutes ago, rbp said:

Do. Not. Try. To. Climb. Out. With. Full.  flaps. 

You should feel… a go around with full flaps and 310bhp! 

The sudden realization of…. There really is a situation where Too much power… is not a good thing….  
 

Throttle control is a good skill to have, or develop quickly…

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, rbp said:

Ponder, whether you think  the plane will not stall at 60 with only approach flaps  at gross weight

(separately : is the white arc for MGLW or MGTW?)

A quick check of CAR 3 shows that stall speeds are to be calculated for design weight. This should be the highest gross weight, or MGTOW. But you can also check the table in the performance section of the POH, and the 0 bank indicated stall speed at max gross weight with gear down and full flaps should be the same as the bottom of the white arc.

[A64Pilot]

The Max operating speeds are Maximums, once in a blue moon exceedence isn’t likely to cause any kind of failure, but just like everything else continuously operating at the maximum limit will most likely over time create fatigue or at least accelerate wear.

There is no harm at all in not dropping gear and flaps the instant you reach max operating speed, and I believe if you wait just a few more seconds until your well below max operating limits things will last longer and require less repairs and maintenance and of course reduce your operating costs.

It’s too bad that most CFI’s don’t have any maintenance background, and it seems that they all teach to drop flaps and gear at the max permissible speeds as if those weren’t maximum limits, but target speeds.

Even brakes are this way, any airplane I’ve owned I’ve never replaced brakes twice, because I don’t use max braking ever. Mooney I bought both mains had two flat spots and a logbook entry of both brake disks having recently replaced. 

Of course if money is no object and you just have to operate things wide open it’s permissible, but all that means is that it’s been tested to show that it can tolerate it one time as these are CAR 3 aircraft there is no consideration of fatigue.

If you back off of maximums of everything, you may be surprised at how much less it can cost to fly.

Most GA aircraft are old, and parts are getting harder to acquire and more expensive, for some reason people don’t think it odd to not keep running a 20 yr old car to redline, but think nothing of operating a 50 yr old aircraft that way?

[A64Pilot]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:27 PM, carusoam said:

You should feel… a go around with full flaps and 310bhp! 

The sudden realization of…. There really is a situation where Too much power… is not a good thing….  
 

Throttle control is a good skill to have, or develop quickly…

Best regards,

-a-

If your trim isn’t excessive it’s not a bad thing.

I built and flew a bunch of “archangel” militarized crop dusters, that had the -67F 1700 SHP P&W turbine as opposed to the -65 1300 SHP motor of its Civilian variant.

I flew them after manufacture without any of the military hardware and they were roughly about 6,000 lb aircraft and at max torque had about a 5,000 ft per min climb rate.

A full power go-around if trimmed properly wasn’t a big deal, just accelerated like a rocket and you were climbing hard very quickly.

 

The limit of how much power can be applied on a go-around or takeoff is rudder authority, when you run out of right rudder, stop adding power until due to airspeed increase the rudder has enough effectiveness, then you can feed in the rest

I never flew a P-51, but it’s my understanding it has a max power limit on takeoff and go-around due to rudder effectiveness. I assume this was normal for that class of aircraft, Does any Mooney POH restrict power on take-off or go-around?

Our Mooney’s even the 300+ HP ones don’t come close to the power to weight ratio of the old war birds, and yet they can go-around safely?

[N201MKTurbo]

I did my flight review last weekend. My instructor asked me to do T&Gs. We did 4 of them. On the first one I said "that take off was kind of weird" she said "you might want to put your flaps up next time" DUH! I guess that's why we do flight reviews. The other three were uneventful. Well that one was uneventful, just weird.

[ilovecornfields]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I did my flight review last weekend. My instructor asked me to do T&Gs. We did 4 of them. On the first one I said "that take off was kind of weird" she said "you might want to put your flaps up next time" DUH! I guess that's why we do flight reviews. The other three were uneventful. Well that one was uneventful, just weird.

I did some practice approaches in IMC before taking the family to Santa Rosa last week. On the first one, I forgot to pull the gear up on the missed approach and didn’t realize it for a ridiculously long time. Reminded me of the time I was doing an IPC with @kortopates and had the speedbrakes out during the missed approach and he didn’t say a word but just started at the speed brake light.