100LL: EPA proposed endangerment finding

[tmo]

Speaking (er, writing) about German engineering - and trying to get this thread back on track - my 1989 560SEL runs well on unleaded...

I also seem to recall it is placarded to 200 km/h (120 mi/h) with winter tires.

That said, the truly older cars we have, we do put some kind of "lead substitute" when filling up at the pump. Or use 100LL.

[A64Pilot]

Back then in the mid 90’s a lot of the limits were Bei Nasse which I think means when wet, and often you couldn’t really let it rip because of traffic, so if that was your intention an early Sat or Sun morning was your best bet.

https://www.simplegermany.com/german-autobahn/

I believe in more built up areas there were limits based on noise too, an automobile at high speed is quite noisy.

Apparently roughly 30% of the Autobahn has speed limits, meaning in good weather 70% does not.

For many years the greens party has tried to impose speed limits, but the average German will have none of it.

[A64Pilot]

What was astonishing was the fuel consumption when running hard, our 275 HP Z28 could swallow up to 27 gallons of fuel per hour, as it only held 15.5 gls you could easily run out in one hour or less.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

What was astonishing was the fuel consumption when running hard, our 275 HP Z28 could swallow up to 27 gallons of fuel per hour, as it only held 15.5 gls you could easily run out in one hour or less.

That sounds right.

I remember reading about the Bugatti Vyron a few years ago - it was something like the 1200hp model and in the article it mentioned running full speed on the German race track at well over 200mph it would run through its fuel tank in 6 or 7 minutes - or something like that.

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

That sounds right.

I remember reading about the Bugatti Vyron a few years ago - it was something like the 1200hp model and in the article it mentioned running full speed on the German race track at well over 200mph it would run through its fuel tank in 6 or 7 minutes - or something like that.

I saw a special about that car. At top speed of 250 mph the tires would blow in 20 minutes, but the fuel will only last 15 . . . . So the only danger is to your wallet. And the Veyron costs more than a pair of Cirri . . . .

[A64Pilot]

21 minutes ago, Hank said:

I saw a special about that car. At top speed of 250 mph the tires would blow in 20 minutes, but the fuel will only last 15 . . . . So the only danger is to your wallet. And the Veyron costs more than a pair of Cirri . . . .

I really don’t think the motor would last that long at those power levels, We were coming home from Heidelberg to near Hanau and were on Autobahn A66 I think on the way to Frankfurt, I could hear what sounded like a Formula 1 behind us, in a few seconds a red either F40 or F50 Ferrari blew past us like we were sitting still, and you could hear that motor wail until he wasn’t in sight anymore.

We passed him in a few minutes, he was on the side of the road with the engine compt hatch open, I’m pretty sure with a blown motor.

Rule of thumb for strong bikes was don’t pin the throttle for longer than you could hold your breath, or it might blow, motors that make insane levels of power can’t do it for long.

I think heat build up is what gets them, but not sure. Not really coolant temp, but engine temp

[Shadrach]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:27 AM, Pinecone said:

In the past, if you were in the left lane and got hit from behind (unlimited speed sections) you were at fault for impeding traffic.

I disagree that there is no flash to pass.  I have personally seen it.  I was driving a section from Garmisch to Frankfurt. Flat out in an Opel.  I saw headlights WAY behind, as I was in the left lane passing.  They flashed.  I got over as soon as I could and a Porsche passed my like I was standing still.  And I was doing 190 (KPH).

About fuel consumption, my 2002 M3 gets better gas mileage at 85 than 65.

Flash to pass was common place when I was there too. It’s not really an aggressive act, it’s more informative as in I’m faster, please make way. 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, tmo said:

Speaking (er, writing) about German engineering - and trying to get this thread back on track - my 1989 560SEL runs well on unleaded...

I also seem to recall it is placarded to 200 km/h (120 mi/h) with winter tires.

That said, the truly older cars we have, we do put some kind of "lead substitute" when filling up at the pump. Or use 100LL.

I have an 88 560Sl. It runs fine on unleaded but needs high octane.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I really don’t think the motor would last that long at those power levels, We were coming home from Heidelberg to near Hanau and were on Autobahn A66 I think on the way to Frankfurt, I could hear what sounded like a Formula 1 behind us, in a few seconds a red either F40 or F50 Ferrari blew past us like we were sitting still, and you could hear that motor wail until he wasn’t in sight anymore.

We passed him in a few minutes, he was on the side of the road with the engine compt hatch open, I’m pretty sure with a blown motor.

Rule of thumb for strong bikes was don’t pin the throttle for longer than you could hold your breath, or it might blow, motors that make insane levels of power can’t do it for long.

I think heat build up is what gets them, but not sure. Not really coolant temp, but engine temp

I saw a Vyron on display in a Mall in Berlin. I looked nice.

I think the cost of the car makes the cost of the fuel seem like its free.

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

I saw a special about that car. At top speed of 250 mph the tires would blow in 20 minutes, but the fuel will only last 15 . . . . So the only danger is to your wallet. And the Veyron costs more than a pair of Cirri . . . .

That was "Captain Slow" James May back in the glory days of Top Gear.   Def worth a watch if you're a car guy.
 

 

[Sue Bon]

On 10/26/2022 at 1:52 AM, Will.iam said:

Try driving Frankfurt to Rammstein your speed will be much more limited and not even when wet. 

A lot of the recent speed restrictions in Germany are because there is just more traffic on the highways than there used to be. There are also a lot more tourists that wreak havoc on the traditional German style of driving. They either want to drive 250 kph or are not comfortable going above 80.

Or the worst offenders: people from countries that I won't mention here that don't drive at home, purchase a driver's license before their vacation and don't know anything about driving in Europe. They have been known to stop on the highways to look at their maps.

Flash to pass is certainly a thing. Also here in Switzerland. I flashed one of the above mentioned tourists once on a highway (he was almost stopped) and when I passed, he tried to run me off the road. Luckily no one was coming the other direction and I could swerve into the other lane.

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

That was "Captain Slow" James May back in the glory days of Top Gear.   Def worth a watch if you're a car guy.
 

 

That was such a fun show.  I saw that episode back when.

I would get scared driving that car at 250mph even on a special track.  (Not that I wouldn't do it if someone tossed me the keys and I was at that special track for the day!)

I think James Maye wearing that old school racers helmet with a built in visor and no chin cover - in the style of a speed racer cartoon - was just for cinematic show to make him look more like a race car driver since I don't think that helmet would have done much good if he had gone ahead and lost control and crashed at 250mph.

I always thought it was funny they called him Capt Slow because clearly he was sensible, but also had all the skills of the other professional drivers on the team, and also he is a pilot so used to following procedures.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I think James Maye wearing that old school racers helmet with a built in visor and no chin cover - in the style of a speed racer cartoon - was just for cinematic show to make him look more like a race car driver since I don't think that helmet would have done much good if he had gone ahead and lost control and crashed at 250mph.

It's an Arai, which is actually a very decent helmet, and the open-faced helmet (as opposed to full-faced, which only has a view port to look out of), is typical for shows or videos when they want you to be able to see and hear the driver when they're speaking.   Since the car also has airbags, it's not quite as big of a tradeoff for someone who makes their living as a TV presenter in a car show.

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I always thought it was funny they called him Capt Slow because clearly he was sensible, but also had all the skills of the other professional drivers on the team, and also he is a pilot so used to following procedures.

All three of them are pretty amazing, and May is definitely way better than the persona they created around him.   He was in a fairly nasty accident in the most recent Grand Tour episode, though, which was pretty surprising to me.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

It's an Arai, which is actually a very decent helmet, and the open-faced helmet (as opposed to full-faced, which only has a view port to look out of), is typical for shows or videos when they want you to be able to see and hear the driver when they're speaking.   Since the car also has airbags, it's not quite as big of a tradeoff for someone who makes their living as a TV presenter in a car show.

All three of them are pretty amazing, and May is definitely way better than the persona they created around him.   He was in a fairly nasty accident in the most recent Grand Tour episode, though, which was pretty surprising to me.

Clearly I don’t know much about car racing or the helmets.

I saw that accident James May was in - agains a cave wall.  That was scary.  I wonder if those guys are getting too old - reaction times/focus etc to be doing the kind of driving they do for the show.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

General Motors used to have a huge test track next to Mesa Gateway Airport (Williams AFB).

I was at a party once and met a driver from the test track. He said he refused to do the tests on the high speed oval. He said he couldn't trust himself to survive. They would run Corvettes (and other cars and trucks) at full speed for days on end non-stop except to re-fuel and change drivers. He said the problem is it becomes so boring you fall asleep and when you nod off at 200 MPH its over pretty fast.

[EricJ]

8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Clearly I don’t know much about car racing or the helmets.

I saw that accident James May was in - agains a cave wall.  That was scary.  I wonder if those guys are getting too old - reaction times/focus etc to be doing the kind of driving they do for the show.

 

The risk on that particular stunt in the tunnel was very high because there was essentially very little margin and no escape paths.   I don't know what went wrong, but it didn't take much.   Hammond basically hasn't participated in any of the risky stunts for a while, and I suspect (and hope) that maybe that'll extend to the others now.

[aviatoreb]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

The risk on that particular stunt in the tunnel was very high because there was essentially very little margin and no escape paths.   I don't know what went wrong, but it didn't take much.   Hammond basically hasn't participated in any of the risky stunts for a while, and I suspect (and hope) that maybe that'll extend to the others now.

They are sort of clowns that take risk and we all watch with glee and horror.  That is part of their sell.

But now they are old men and their reactions are slow and I just cringe.

I would sooner they not take those risks and just be silly and show us cool cars.

In that same episode they broke a car through lake ice and then saved it with a cool trick with logs.  That seemed kind of staged though since they had all the equipment ready to start saving it.  Otherwise I would say that was very risky too.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

They are sort of clowns that take risk and we all watch with glee and horror.  That is part of their sell.

But now they are old men and their reactions are slow and I just cringe.

I would sooner they not take those risks and just be silly and show us cool cars.

In that same episode they broke a car through lake ice and then saved it with a cool trick with logs.  That seemed kind of staged though since they had all the equipment ready to start saving it.  Otherwise I would say that was very risky too.

It’s almost all staged. Clarkson has joked about the irony of being notified that Top Gear was to receive an Emmy nomination for “- Non-Scripted Entertainment” while he was writing the script.
 

The sunken car was totally scripted. The tunnel crash was likely a scripted incident that went badly, but made for good content.

Obviously there have been real accidents. I think the “Every man” persona of these guys diminishes the perception that they are not only highly skilled drivers but true adrenaline junkies.  NFW a “normal” 45 year old wants to be a wing walker for a day.  They don’t need the money nor the content, so I have to assume there’s a level of enjoyment beyond just making good TV.

You should spend a few hours on a track with a 75 year old  instructor in the right seat making you feel like a bag of molasses…it puts things in perspective.

Humans certainly deteriorate physically, by how much varies quite a bit from individual to individual.  This sort of thing is easy to witness in musicians. John McLaughlin for example probably isn’t as fast at 80 as he was at 35. Yet even as an octogenarian his technical abilities are jaw-dropping by any measure.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You should spend a few hours on a track with a 75 year old  instructor in the right seat making you feel like a bag of molasses…it puts things in perspective.

Humans certainly deteriorate physically, by how much varies quite a bit from individual to individual.  This sort of thing is easy to witness in musicians. John McLaughlin for example probably isn’t as fast at 80 as he was at 35. Yet even as an octogenarian his technical abilities are jaw-dropping by any measure.

The Top Gear sequences where James May was being coached by Jackie Stewart and Mika Hakkinen were hilarious.  I would totally want Jackie Stewart to be my uncle 

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

The Top Gear sequences where James May was being coached by Jackie Stewart and Mika Hakkinen were hilarious.  I would totally want Jackie Stewart to be my uncle 

YEEEES!

Let's call Jackie and we can make a pool lottery for who get's to have Jackie Stewart become their uncle.  Jackie gets the money and one lucky bloke gets an awesome new uncle!!!

[EricJ]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

The Top Gear sequences where James May was being coached by Jackie Stewart and Mika Hakkinen were hilarious.  I would totally want Jackie Stewart to be my uncle 

That was an awesome ep as well.  Jackie can be quite a twit sometimes (e.g., when he interviewed Senna), but is still a freaking racing god.   He gave some advice on that episode that I'd never heard before at the time, "Don't get on the throttle until you know you won't have to take it off."   I was able to use that, so I always remembered that episode.

BTW, that's contrary to the techniques of some other top drivers, like Schumacher and Senna, who sometimes used the throttle like an on/off switch and would sometimes heavily modulate the throttle a few times on a corner exit.

[Sue Bon]

I love this thread  

[Sue Bon]

A few years ago I was lucky enough to be invited to the Ferrari test track in Maranello. We got to go around the track with one or both of the test "pilots" and then we could go by ourselves. My first lap with the German "pilot," Thomas, went as I expected it to. Then it was my turn (embarrassing); then I went with the guy that's been driving that track for over 30 years. Every time I thought, "ok, he needs to brake now" was exactly when he floored it. It was the strangest experience! We spun out once, but he just rode it through and went to the next turn like nothing happened.

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

I love this thread  

I KNOW right? ! I mean when it first started, I rolled my eyes and I was like, this one is going to tumble into a hate fest and eventually get locked.

Instead I am looking forward to playing the Uncle-lottery and then Jackie Stewart will be my new cool Uncle when I win!

[carusoam]

Some thread drift is a godsend…

I had to check the title to remember what this one was about…

-a-