Mooney Porsche PFM Parts/Engine

[drstephensugiono]

It is a real risk / reward proposition….
The reward is only interesting if you like to have a plane with a Porsche engine in it…. To go with your other Porsche related machines….
The risk is you have a chance that the engine goes out of spec and becomes unusable as a flying machine…
As the first Long body… it was underpowered… with a power increase coming as a Porsche turbo…. But never came through…
The Bravo was the next LB… with more HP and a turbo….
The ovation was LB#3… 280hp…. More than the Bravo….
The Eagle tried to be an entry level Ovation and was limited by having PFS level of power….
The O3 came along… at 310hp… demonstrating there is a point where you really have enough HP…. 
 
So… we have kind of touched on the known risks… and only some possible routes to explore a possible solution…
If everything works out with the OPP… you still have the limitations that come with being the first LB….
 
If you want the maximum performance of the LB that has a car connection…. 
 
Find an Ovation or Acclaim that has the BMW design group paint scheme…. Joe Z had one, and added BMW hood logos on it…. It really looked like the plane was a serious BMW aircraft….
There was an orange Long body… OrangeMTL chose the color for its find me ability….
The beemers were much better performers for modern day flying….
The PFM may be great for display and a few flights here and there….
 
If you have an A&P that is also a Porsche-file mechanic… this would be a helpful person to have on board…
But, hunting spring replacement technology and OPP… this is a mechanic with engineering skills….
 
I wonder if Jay Leno has an A&P on his payroll…
Some interesting projects come to fruition when an hour long program is made to sell advertising…. Jay Leno’s garage….
May need a legal teem to keep that project sanitized… for broadcast…. To everyone that wants to take a look…
 
Best regards,
-a- 

I can handle the OPP valve springs but I can’t fix the reduction gear box problems! Any little thing can ground this thing!


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[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, drstephensugiono said:

I’m still in the negotiating process and it’s looking like more of a big risk!
This plane can be flying one moment to a heap of metal in one simple second !
 

If you haven't bought it yet, run, do not walk away from it. Do not look back.

[drstephensugiono]

If you haven't bought it yet, run, do not walk away from it. Do not look back.

A part of me wants to run but the other part is the challenge to keep in up in the air and take it to our Cars & Jets event every year.


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[LANCECASPER]

13 hours ago, drstephensugiono said:

A part of me wants to run but the other part is the challenge to keep in up in the air and take it to our Cars & Jets event every year.
 

Listen to the voice that wants to run 

The person that the FAA still shows this registered to has had it registered in his name since at least 9/16/1997, so very likely that he got the Porsche settlement in the late 90's and decided to keep the airplane. He was made whole by Porsche. It looks like someone else is trying to sell the airplane or bought it from him and the FAA registration hasn't gone through yet. My guess is that it was bought for a small fraction of the selling price.

When I first saw that ad and the price he was asking (way too high), my first impression is that he wants to find someone who knows nothing about Mooneys and operates only on emotion in a strong seller's market. You're on Mooneyspace, you have a wealth of information to draw from. If you want to just park it in your hangar and look at it and could buy the airframe for $20,000 or even $30,000, it's a nostalgic piece of history. I get that. But keep in mind there were two M20L Mooney Porsches I could have bought for $40,000 for both back in 2014. One was blue, the other one was red. The seller back then had started at $60,000 for both. There was a slight possibility with both of them, you could have had one airworthy airplane for a short period of time. I am so glad I passed on that.

 

[Pinecone]

It is now collectable.

Even rare vehicles go down in price over time, then they start creeping up, then go higher and higher.

Since this is one only what, 3 - 4, that makes the value more.

I have a collector car.  One of 116 sold to the public.  I managed to buy at the low point, about 8 years after they were made.  Now, coming up on 30 years old, it is worth about 5 times what I paid for it.

[drstephensugiono]

6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Listen to the voice that wants to run 

The person that the FAA still shows this registered to has had it registered in his name since at least 9/16/1997, so very likely that he got the Porsche settlement in the late 90's and decided to keep the airplane. He was made whole by Porsche. It looks like someone else is trying to sell the airplane or bought it from him and the FAA registration hasn't gone through yet. My guess is that it was bought for a small fraction of the selling price.

When I first saw that ad and the price he was asking (way too high), my first impression is that he wants to find someone who knows nothing about Mooneys and operates only on emotion in a strong seller's market. You're on Mooneyspace, you have a wealth of information to draw from. If you want to just park in in your hangar and look at it and could buy the airframe for $20,000 or even $30,000, it's a nostalgic piece of history. I get that. But keep in mind there were two M20L Mooney Porsches I could have bought for $40,000 for both back in 2014. One was blue, the other one was red. The seller back than had started at $60,000 for both. There was a slight possibility with both of them, you could have had one airworthy airplane for a short period of time. I am so glad I passed on that.

 

He wouldn’t  take $30k or $40k !

[jetdriven]

it is worth the parts value.

[drstephensugiono]

19 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

it is worth the parts value.

The wing is similar to my Bravo but not the same because the PFM has early Mooney landing gear, etc

[LANCECASPER]

56 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

it is worth the parts value.

There is a lot of labor that goes into parting out an airplane. Since it only applies to an M20L, the wing is a unicorn, as are many of the parts on this airplane.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, drstephensugiono said:

He wouldn’t  take $30k or $40k !

There are not people lined up to buy this airplane. If he paid that much for it I would be surprised. If it's still there in 90 days you'll have a much better idea of value. 

Cars are collectible. Airplanes need annual inspections and lots of maintenance in between to remain airworthy. People don't make money collecting single engine airplanes, especially ones where the engine maker has done everything to ground the airplane.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. Buy it for what he's asking, completely restore everything, make owner produced parts for the engine and see how much people are willing to pay you for it after all of that. 

[Guest]

It would make a cool ornament at the local Porsche dealer.

[drstephensugiono]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

There are not people lined up to buy this airplane. If he paid that much for it I would be surprised. If it's still there in 90 days you'll have a much better idea of value. 

Cars are collectible. Airplanes need annual inspections and lots of maintenance in between to remain airworthy. People don't make money collecting single engine airplanes, especially ones where the engine maker has done everything to ground the airplane.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. Buy it for what he's asking, completely restore everything, make owner produced parts for the engine and see how much people are willing to pay you for it after all of that. 

U R correct, it has to be a salvage value to take that chance!

[drstephensugiono]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

There is a lot of labor that goes into parting out an airplane. Since it only applies to an M20L, the wing is a unicorn, as are many of the parts on this airplane.

Again you ALL are correct!

[carusoam]

When considering an automobile engine for an aircraft….

They all come with some form of gearbox…

for  matching  the rpm of the engine to the rpm of the prop…

The challenge the gearbox guys have… is make it strong enough and make it light enough….

There are industrial gearboxes from the oil industry that last forever… and work efficiently…

Getting it light enough… to put on the nose… takes away from its strength…

 

I briefly considered an experimental plane, Ravin 500, that used a Corvette engine…. 300+hp… easy to work on, not costly to replace…. (LS1…)

When the gear box exploded… the WnB was gone… no opportunity to fly the plane to the ground….

https://www.kitplanes.com/geared-drives-remembered/

 

While searching for this Ravin article from memory… I found there are many more planes now using the similar set-up today… 

Back in the day… the challenge looked insurmountable….

This M20L could make…

1) the greatest piece of wall art…

2) A nice plane to fly a few times per year….

Flying it is an insurance and annual maintenance kind of challenge… may be kind of expensive for the few hours of flight it may see…

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… 

best regards,

-a-

[drstephensugiono]

When considering an automobile engine for an aircraft….
They all come with some form of gearbox…
for  matching  the rpm of the engine to the rpm of the prop…
The challenge the gearbox guys have… is make it strong enough and make it light enough….
There are industrial gearboxes from the oil industry that last forever… and work efficiently…
Getting it light enough… to put on the nose… takes away from its strength…
 
I briefly considered an experimental plane, Ravin 500, that used a Corvette engine…. 300+hp… easy to work on, not costly to replace…. (LS1…)
When the gear box exploded… the WnB was gone… no opportunity to fly the plane to the ground….
https://www.kitplanes.com/geared-drives-remembered/
 
While searching for this Ravin article from memory… I found there are many more planes now using the similar set-up today… 
Back in the day… the challenge looked insurmountable….

This M20L could make…
1) the greatest piece of wall art…
2) A nice plane to fly a few times per year….
Flying it is an insurance and annual maintenance kind of challenge… may be kind of expensive for the few hours of flight it may see…
 
PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… 
best regards,
-a-

Have you heard of Uwe Sauter ? He is German that used to be in the Mooney Porsche development and still maintaining the remainder of the PFMs in Europe.


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[carusoam]

3 hours ago, drstephensugiono said:

Have you heard of Uwe Sauter ? He is German that used to be in the Mooney Porsche development and still maintaining the remainder of the PFMs in Europe.


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Sounds familiar…

So… I looked him up….

A relatively recent article from Porsche with a few paragraphs about Uwe…

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/history/porsche-history-aircraft-engine-specialist-13268.html

He sounds like an interesting contact to have…   Next stop, LinkedIn….

Best regards,

-a-

[drstephensugiono]

Sounds familiar…
So… I looked him up….
A relatively recent article from Porsche with a few paragraphs about Uwe…
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/history/porsche-history-aircraft-engine-specialist-13268.html
He sounds like an interesting contact to have…   Next stop, LinkedIn….
Best regards,
-a-

Tried finding/googling any sources to find him to no avail !


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[carusoam]

Sounds like a fun challenge….

From the 2016 article…  we know where Uwe was at the time….

The place is still proudly showing a pic of a Porsche Mooney…

https://www.flugschule-heubach.de

 

They give an email address for Kontakt….

info@flugschule-heubach.de

Might make an interesting email letter… ask if they have seen Uwe lately.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Odd dead end…

Some people have common names… which makes them harder to find…

I found one Uwe Sauter….

Here….  https://www.amazon.com/Mein-Herzenswunsch/dp/B00367QC7Y/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=91d45f12-3151-4617-9055-9748445a3812
 

Perfect music for a good Oktoberfest!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Closest hit so far…

Uwe is/was a manager at the airport… as of 2018…

FlugFest Heubach…. An annual fly in…?

Phone numbers included…

-a-

http://www.porscheaviation.com/index.php/heubach-2016

Email might work as well….

admin@porscheaviation.com

[drstephensugiono]

Closest hit so far…
Uwe is/was a manager at the airport… as of 2018…
FlugFest Heubach…. An annual fly in…?
Phone numbers included…
-a-
http://www.porscheaviation.com/index.php/heubach-2016
Email might work as well….
admin@porscheaviation.com

I will try kontakting him!


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[A64Pilot]

Gearboxes can be made light and strong and last a long time, all it takes is $$$, every turbo prop has a reduction gearbox and look at their record.

Some  “nut” may buy this airplane, maybe the nut that still flies a Starship and has bought every part there is available?

[drstephensugiono]

LOL, my wife has told me and keeps telling me I’m a nut. Passion runs deep and this is one of them, providing I get it at a reasonable price. I know that it can be a pile of heap anytime something goes wrong, even the littlest thing.


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[drstephensugiono]

Gearboxes can be made light and strong and last a long time, all it takes is $$$, every turbo prop has a reduction gearbox and look at their record.
Some  “nut” may buy this airplane, maybe the nut that still flies a Starship and has bought every part there is available?

The Starship was kinda ugly. But, the Piaggio Avanti is the Ferrari of the sky, beautiful!


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[EricJ]

7 minutes ago, drstephensugiono said:

The Starship was kinda ugly. But, the Piaggio Avanti is the Ferrari of the sky, beautiful!
 

They make a very unique sound.   I can always tell when one comes over my house going into Scottsdale.