Mooney Myths

[sreid]

Quote: N4352H

I'll always own my Mooney, but I have to tell you.... 2000-2004 SR20's with steam guages are now going in the low $100k's. What do you get? A Lexus motor car interior, 4 point harnesses, CAPS, 2 electric busses, in most cases 2 G430W's, electric HSI and at least and Stec 30, some 55X's. Relative to the market, this is an exceptional value. They are not bad planes.

[co2bruce]

Quote: pjsny78

 Was it a bunch of stuff that the previous owner let slide?  I don't see why a mooney would be so much extra to maintain.  Maybe a few hours extra labor here and there.

My IA complained about how tight it was by the firewall when changing the engine mounts.  He had to remove a few extra things to gain access to them.

[PTK]

Quote: N4352H

I'll always own my Mooney, but I have to tell you.... 2000-2004 SR20's with steam guages are now going in the low $100k's. What do you get? A Lexus motor car interior, 4 point harnesses, CAPS, 2 electric busses, in most cases 2 G430W's, electric HSI and at least and Stec 30, some 55X's. Relative to the market, this is an exceptional value. They are not bad planes.

[MATTS875]

I read the same myths before I bought mine.To me it is more comfortable than the archer I trained in. I am 5'10 and big framed aka fat and fit perfectly fine. Most of the time it is just me and my wife ,so all is good with the space.

[John Pleisse]

Hey look Fellas... I agree with all of this. But for $120-30k...it's a lot of bang for the buck. There are high ticket items to watch out for. 1) WAAS Upgrades 2) those Avidyne MFD's are junk 3) The CAPS 10 yr reload costs over $10k. 4) early Cirrus fit and finish was junk. But in terms of equipment an redundancy.... it's pretty good. I would never buy one, unless I were starting from scratch.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: N4352H

3) The CAPS 10 yr reload costs over $10k.

[PTK]

Lets see: 10 grand for insurance + 10 grand for an annual + 10 grand for parachute + + + !! 

[pjsny78]

Quote: co2bruce

 

Some items were left over from the previous owner but the majority of squawks seem to have happened afterwards. It’s almost seems like on every flight something happens. Lately it’s been the avionics giving me issues.  Thankfully the engine has not had many issues other than just a few things like a new starter and other minor stuff.  I am not one to let things go. If it’s feasible I get things fixed ASAP. But even my mechanic says that he has not seen anyone with more problems in 30years of experience he thinks it’s just an extended streak of bad luck.  

[AndyFromCB]

From my few hours in a Cirrus cockpit, it is much more comfortable and quiet that my Bravo or my Arrow. The cabin doesn't just seem larger, it is considerably wider and much, much more quiet.The seats are so much more comfortably than my Mooney. Everything seems well though out vs the let's see where we can find some empty space Mooney philosphy. The climate control is wonderful.

So why didn't I buy one? Hand flying that thing is horrible, it's not that it doesn't fly well but it feels like driving a boat, no feedback what so ever thru the controls. Just plain horrible. The climb rate and performance at high density altitude sucks with that wing. As much as I love autopilots, the most critical phases of flight must be handflown and Cirrus plainly sucks there.

My other car is a Honda S2000 so my mooney suits me just fine ;-) My first car is a beat up truck. Cirrus I think very much appeals to MB/Lexus crowd. Plus something still feels very wrong about having them wheels hanging out in the wind.

Fortune willing, my next airplane will be the big Mooney aka TBM 850. Just got to keep on working ;-) Had a plasure to fly it a few times and it is just a big, giant Mooney Bravo. Even more of that on-rails feeling that I get with a Mooney.

And yes, they are hard to land if you can't control your airspeed. If I cross the fence at 75knots, power at idle, many times I wonder if I'm on the ground or still flying.

My Arrow is almost sold, my Super Decathlon is almost bought ;-)

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: pjsny78

[jetdriven]

The cirrus is a FAR part 23 airplane and mike Busch told us at oshkoshvthat annuals are 50% more than "legacy airplanes" IE an A36 Bonanza.   The the parachute etc.  probably more to own than a Bravo and look what you get there. 

Quote: N4352H

Hey look Fellas... I agree with all of this. But for $120-30k...it's a lot of bang for the buck. There are high ticket items to watch out for. 1) WAAS Upgrades 2) those Avidyne MFD's are junk 3) The CAPS 10 yr reload costs over $10k. 4) early Cirrus fit and finish was junk. But in terms of equipment an redundancy.... it's pretty good. I would never buy one, unless I were starting from scratch.

[flyboy0681]

These are all really good comments.

As taken from Mooneyland (from "Why I fly a Mooney"), here are the interior dimensions:

Aircraft                          Cabin Width    Cabin Heigh

Mooney 201                        43.5"               44.5"
Beechcraft V35 Bonanza       42.0"               50.0"
Cessna 182                         42.0"               48.0"
Piper Arrow                         41.0"               45.0"

 

As far as hard to land, I think everyone here knows that the correct numbers are critical on the Mooney.

As far as George's comment on keeping things quiet, please let the world know. I'd love it if my J was worth the same as a Bonanza.

Maintenance? The Cirrus is notorious for its repair costs. Aviation Consumer had an article about a year ago comparing similar items on a Cessna vs Cirrus and gave one example of a small crease in the wing due to impact with a stationary object, like hangar door. On the Cessna the rivets would be popped, the skin removed, the spar repaired and then all sewn up. The Cirrus required cutting around the area, fixing the damage, then a curing process. I believe the author said the Cessna fix would be $3k to the Cirrus' $20k. To add insult to injury, few shops could handle the Cirrus repair.

 

[Hank]

Quote: flyboy0681

As taken from Mooneyland (from "Why I fly a Mooney"), here are the interior dimensions:

Aircraft                          Cabin Width    Cabin Heigh

Mooney 201                        43.5"               44.5"

Beechcraft V35 Bonanza       42.0"               50.0"

Cessna 182                         42.0"               48.0"

Piper Arrow                         41.0"               45.0"

As far as hard to land, I think everyone here knows that the correct numbers are critical on the Mooney.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Hank

Yep, you nailed exactly why Joe Pilot thinks our planes are hard to land. You have to pay attention and fly the correct airspeed; just aiming for the runway won't work, and few people train to that level, much less maintain it, in a Brand B/C that does not require it. Why stress over 5-10 knots on final when the plane still lands OK?

As far as space, I think the fact that our cockpits are narrower around our heads than across the hips contributes to the "tight" impression. So does the narrow footwell, and the sports car position with your feet in front of you instead of like sitting in your desk chair a la Cessna. But it all helps achieve better aerodynamic efficiency, which gets us where we're going in less time, using less fuel than the competition. Then again, without even getting in one--park beside an A36 and tell me which one looks bigger, and remember that this perception will carry over when/if they get inside a Mooney.

For us short body folks, I tell first-time passengers that my wife's Corolla is "roomy and spacious" in comparison, especially if we have to load luggage. I can put more in her trunk [loaded loosely] than in my baggage compartment, hat rack and back seat, packed tight up to the ceiling. Vintage birds with original windshields have to deal with a low, view-restricting roofline, too. Thankfully mine was upgraded before I ever saw her.

[bnicolette]

Quote: N4352H

Hey look Fellas... I agree with all of this. But for $120-30k...it's a lot of bang for the buck. There are high ticket items to watch out for. 1) WAAS Upgrades 2) those Avidyne MFD's are junk 3) The CAPS 10 yr reload costs over $10k. 4) early Cirrus fit and finish was junk. But in terms of equipment an redundancy.... it's pretty good. I would never buy one, unless I were starting from scratch.

[pjsny78]

I will just add my 2 cents since we started talking Cirrus.

When I was shopping for a plane, I was going to get either a Mooney or a SR22.

The major reason I choose the Mooney was the depreciation factor. There is something about the cirrus where they are losing value FAST. I spoke to several owners and past owners of cirrus’s and the majority think it’s because they made so many of them. I honestly don’t know the reason other than my Mooney’s value is holding steady.

[orangemtl]

Quote: eldeano

It's all about sex appeal.  The car like interior and flat panel screens.  If you put a Cirrus SR20 next to a Mooney Acclaim and ask the general public which one they would rather have, they would pick the SR20 every time.  Then throw in the parachute.

We know the parachute can only be used in situations that you probably could make an emergency landing from, but the other half of the buying decision likes to know it's there.

[MATTS875]

I had a cirrus sr20 and liked it but the upkeep was to me ridiculous. I had a 2000 model and owned it for a year.It had very nice ramp appeal but it came with a price.It got to the point where I could not enjoy the plane because of the upkeep. I know all planes are expensive to keep up but some are definitely worse than others.I had to buy a lower priced plane and not as nice ramp appeal but I love flying and the mooney allows me to do just that.At our airport at KSEM a doctor friend of mine has a 2004 SR20 and had a cracked case. He opted to put in a brand new engine at over $30k..its all relevent though.

[KSMooniac]

Michael, I was just wondering a few days ago if we ran you off of here with our gentle (and not-so-gentle) advice!  Glad you worked your way down to slower and safer landing speeds and found that is does indeed work better.  I've seen a few Acclaims at my favorite MSC getting their gear (and props and engines) repaired from poor landings, and I don't want you to go down the same path.

Back to Cirrii, depreciation is due to just normal depreciation of a new asset, and the fact that they made a LOT of those relative to any other new plane.  Contributing to that is the fact that newer models came out with "new and improved" features throughout the airframe, which further depresses the value of the oldest models.  For those of us that can only buy used, that is a good thing, and eventually we will be able to shop Cirrii, Cessnalumbias, and newer Mooneys for about the same budget.  In pjsny78's case, I'm not sure what year Cirrus he was shopping (perhaps new?) vs. a '95 Mooney that was already down the depreciation curve, so that is apples and oranges IMO.  (Although a 2008 Ovation vs. a 2008 SR22 would be a good comparison, and the Mooney does indeed hold more value today as far as I know.)

[pjsny78]

Quote: KSMooniac

Michael, I was just wondering a few days ago if we ran you off of here with our gentle (and not-so-gentle) advice!  Glad you worked your way down to slower and safer landing speeds and found that is does indeed work better.  I've seen a few Acclaims at my favorite MSC getting their gear (and props and engines) repaired from poor landings, and I don't want you to go down the same path.

Back to Cirrii, depreciation is due to just normal depreciation of a new asset, and the fact that they made a LOT of those relative to any other new plane.  Contributing to that is the fact that newer models came out with "new and improved" features throughout the airframe, which further depresses the value of the oldest models.  For those of us that can only buy used, that is a good thing, and eventually we will be able to shop Cirrii, Cessnalumbias, and newer Mooneys for about the same budget.  In pjsny78's case, I'm not sure what year Cirrus he was shopping (perhaps new?) vs. a '95 Mooney that was already down the depreciation curve, so that is apples and oranges IMO.  (Although a 2008 Ovation vs. a 2008 SR22 would be a good comparison, and the Mooney does indeed hold more value today as far as I know.)

[Dale]

The look of the Cirrus is nice, but it still doesn't compare to a Mooney, any Mooney.  I also still like it when controllers ask the plane in front of me on an approach to speed up because they have a Mooney behind them or alternatively, ask me to slow down more because I have a Cirrus in front of me.  I was flying into Asheville this past summer and a number of planes were converging on the Asheville airport at the same time for the Fourth of July weekend.  The controller was asking all the pilots to keep up their airspeed on the approach due to the large amount of traffic.  The controller was repeatedly asking the Cirrus in front of me to keep his speed up on the approach and telling him there was a Mooney behind him that was rapidly overtaking him.  I don't know, you say you fly a Cirrus, or a Cessna, or a Piper and other pilots say that's nice.  You say you fly a Mooney and other pilots take notice.  Just my humble opinion. 

As for the myths, all planes have them, true or untrue.  I can remember everytime someone saw a V tailed Bonanza they would say there goes another V Tailed Doctor Killer, etc.  Some myths live on for a plane's life, whether true or untrue and it becomes part of the fabric of the brand or model.  Mooneys may just have more of them, whether justified or not.

[pjsny78]

I think the new doctor killers are the cirrus’s. When I was shopping for one the insurance was 3x as much as I pay for my Mooney + they want you to take a cirrus transition class. That was another factor that turned me away from them but the biggest was the depreciation factor.  

[aviatoreb]

Quote: sreid

Have you flown much in early Cirrus's?  I don't know anyone else who would say their interior is remotely close to "Lexus".  More comparable to a late '80s Ford.  And I'd expect the maintenance costs to be considerably higher than a comparable Mooney.

[jetdriven]

Annuals on a Cirrus are 10-15K easily.  Parachute repack every 10 years = 10K and a week of downtime.  Funny thing overheard at Oshkosh last year, "those cabin doors on Cirrus leak, and we always have to keep mesing with them.'

 

That parachute can only be deployed below 135 knots.

 

Then the Cirrus school and you can only recieve dual from an instructor who went to the Cirrus school too.

[eldeano]