Pinecone Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 I am looking to purchase a Mooney. Looking at a 252 Should I be worried about a mid-time engine (800 - 1000 hours)? Will it likely need some serious work soon? I was just reading Mike Busch about running his Lycomings to some 3000 hours, but have also read that Continental TSIO-360s are expected to need a top overhaul midway to TBO. Thanks Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 (edited) Borescope will tell a lot, but your right to expect a Top overhaul before reaching TBO, discount accordingly, but with todays market you may not be able to. Often the decision to sell comes slowly over time, so it’s not real common to find a low time motor as most know they won’t get that money back. When I was looking I was shocked to see that engine time wasn’t reflected in asking price, used to be you took overhaul price divided by hours left to TBO and priced accordingly, but that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore, I was seeing asking prices for aircraft with run out engines, one even past TBO equal to aircraft with low time motors. While it’s true that you can often run a motor until well past TBO, often it’s costs way more to overhaul that motor as the Crank and cam / lifters etc are worn beyond limits so it’s my opinion that’s it’s false economy. Edited May 5, 2022 by A64Pilot 1 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 7 hours ago, Pinecone said: Should I be worried about a mid-time engine (800 - 1000 hours)? Hours are certainly a data point, but I would also want to know who did the engine last time, has it had cylinders, what do the cylinders look like inside, does the airplane have a per-cylinder recording engine monitor, how often was the oil changed, and is the owner an idiot. Quote
anthonydesmet Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 8 hours ago, Pinecone said: I am looking to purchase a Mooney. Looking at a 252 Should I be worried about a mid-time engine (800 - 1000 hours)? Will it likely need some serious work soon? I was just reading Mike Busch about running his Lycomings to some 3000 hours, but have also read that Continental TSIO-360s are expected to need a top overhaul midway to TBO. Thanks As mentioned above, engine hours is about 1/4 of the story. How long since last overhaul? How many hours a year? If the airplane has 900 hours and has flown 150 hours a year the last 3 to 5 years I would jump all over it assuming good compression and borescope (oil analysis another plus). If 900 hours and flown 50 or less a year I would budget for some kind of overhaul….. really depends how it has been flown and maintained. Does it have a good engine monitor? If so, it probably means previous owner might have been diligent about CHT temps. I’d probably seek the help of SAVVY pre-but to help you walk through it. I also have a TSIO-360MB. Just competed overhaul over a year ago and I made it to 1650 when compressions highlighted some wear. I averaged 120+ a year. Finding a 252 is like a unicorn so definitely worth the time investigating. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 A top overhaul isn’t the end of the world. If it’s sat a long time and might need s full overhaul, that’s a different stoty. Quote
Guest Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Pinecone said: I am looking to purchase a Mooney. Looking at a 252 Should I be worried about a mid-time engine (800 - 1000 hours)? Will it likely need some serious work soon? I was just reading Mike Busch about running his Lycomings to some 3000 hours, but have also read that Continental TSIO-360s are expected to need a top overhaul midway to TBO. Thanks As a general rule, Continental cylinders are junk and will require replacement before reaching engine overhaul time. Their valves leak and the ring to cylinder wall fit goes south much faster than a Lycoming cylinder. Replacing cylinders will often see the engine make it to normal overhaul life. Personally cylinder life/health wouldn’t dissuade me from an otherwise good airplane. Clarence Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Pinecone said: I was just reading Mike Busch about running his Lycomings To be accurate, if Busch is talking about the 310 he's been flying for a zillion years, those engines are Continental 520s. Quote
Will.iam Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: To be accurate, if Busch is talking about the 310 he's been flying for a zillion years, those engines are Continental 520s. So is the 252 mooney the OP is looking at, just a 360 instead of a 520 and really a detuned 360 at that as the encore is the same tsio-360 with the boost and fuel flow turned up to get 220HP instead of 210HP so the TSIO-360MB can be thought of running at a reduced max power takeoff, still bad heat management will ruin it just as fast. Quote
Will.iam Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Pinecone said: I am looking to purchase a Mooney. Looking at a 252 Should I be worried about a mid-time engine (800 - 1000 hours)? Will it likely need some serious work soon? I was just reading Mike Busch about running his Lycomings to some 3000 hours, but have also read that Continental TSIO-360s are expected to need a top overhaul midway to TBO. Thanks Ironically don't be surprised by the time you contact the seller after mulling this over that the seller already has a buyer in contract. When I was first looking for my mooney in 2019 before the insane buying really got going, I had 3 airplane get sold before I could even get a contract on one to check out, and two of those were 231's and one 252. My plane came up on barnstormer on a saturday and I called him that day to put a contract on it since 252's are so rare to come up, I flew out monday, test flew it, did compression test, swung the gear, looked through all the logbooks just waiting for my funds to clear so I could wire him the money, all the while he was getting calls 2 to 3 times each day, one guy from Europe was ready to buy site unseen and fly over to get it. Obviously getting it for less than his asking price was not going to happen. with each day people checking in to see if my funds fell through or if I had backed out. He was nice enough to let me stay at his house until the funds cleared. I really feel blessed and lucky to have found a 252 as they are so rare and since the motor was run-out, at a price I could afford. Even right now with the motor past TBO I could turn right around and sell it now and make $50,000 easily. All this to say better to get a contract first then dig through the logbooks and plane else by the time you feel it's a good buy someone else has already got a contract on it. 2 Quote
Fly Boomer Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 21 minutes ago, Will.iam said: So is the 252 mooney the OP is looking at, just a 360 instead of a 520 My point was to clarify that Busch had an enormous number of hours on his Continental engine(s) without cylinders. He says he runs very conservatively. I suspect, at least with a Continental, that's what makes the difference between 500 hour cylinders and 3000 hour cylinders. 1 Quote
Will.iam Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: My point was to clarify that Busch had an enormous number of hours on his Continental engine(s) without cylinders. He says he runs very conservatively. I suspect, at least with a Continental, that's what makes the difference between 500 hour cylinders and 3000 hour cylinders. I agree, the biggest reason 231's had so many early overhauls -- They ran hot and hard to keep cool unless ran conservatively. 1 Quote
kortopates Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 Mike generally runs no more than 65% and LOP and yes Continental TSIO-520’s. Many people assume any 360 is a lycoming since the lyc Io-360 is so popular.I wouldn’t say a cylinder change is major work at all but it is invasive and should be avoided till really necessary. Most cylinders are replaced before they really need to be. Many times lapping a valve will save the cylinder.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
carusoam Posted May 5, 2022 Report Posted May 5, 2022 OK… Let’s summarize TC’d engines… their power output… where they do it… If somebody wants to fly FAST… They will like high altitudes… where air resistance is lower… Will use high power settings… because they can, safely… And May see some crummy cooling characteristics of the thinner air… found at altitude… The market is still pretty tough for buyers… A proper discount strategy may work… Know the value of what you are buying… Selecting a lesser plane can help… but defeats the purpose… A PPI isn’t perfect… but, it is the best defense for your wallet… Selecting the right seller often helps… getting the right PPI is important… In the end… the cost of ownership is so large compared to the purchase price… Use some statistics… If I need an X, can I afford a Y to cure whatever X is… Put values for all of the major Xs a plane could need… What is the chance you need to sell at the end of the first year…? Fancy planes have tough lessons for first time owners… Can you fly like Pilot A, to get Pilot A’s good results… (probably, make sure you know what Pilot A did) It really helps to be able to speak with the current seller… a worthwhile relationship…. Even after the sale… PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… or plane salesman…. Best regards, -a- Quote
philiplane Posted May 6, 2022 Report Posted May 6, 2022 replace the exhaust valve rotocoils right away, that will keep the exhaust valves rotating and reduce the chance of a burned valve. 1 Quote
Will.iam Posted May 6, 2022 Report Posted May 6, 2022 13 hours ago, Pinecone said: I am looking to purchase a Mooney. Looking at a 252 Should I be worried about a mid-time engine (800 - 1000 hours)? Will it likely need some serious work soon? I was just reading Mike Busch about running his Lycomings to some 3000 hours, but have also read that Continental TSIO-360s are expected to need a top overhaul midway to TBO. Thanks Sorry rereading your question i would not hesitate to buy an airplane with a mid time engine i bought one that was run-out because it was either that or no airplane as there was no other 252 on the market at that time and I didn’t want to wait months if not years for another one to come up for sale, they only made 231 total. Mid time, thats really the best place to be as infant mortality is passed and you have a longer time before TBO than a run-out engine. 2 Quote
Z W Posted May 6, 2022 Report Posted May 6, 2022 Been running a mid-time TSIO-360-MB for about 10 years and several hundred hours now. We keep the engine cool, under 380, using a full engine monitor, cowl flaps, and several techniques, including full power climbs to altitude and careful cowl flap management in cruise, neither of which are recommended in the POH, but can be found on Mooneyspace and other places I'm sure. It takes work and management. Without the full monitor and those techniques, we'd be running closer to 400 degree CHTs very easily, which I expect is how the engines got that reputation in this plane. But it sure does run nice. With that, we've had to do some cylinder work. Replaced several of them at this point. Don't know how it was run before we got it. It's in right now for annual. #3 and #5 were both a little low on compression, 58/80 and 60/80. Inspection showed some corrosion on the valves, but still crosshatching on the cylinder walls. Current plan is to replace the valves and keep flying. Cost is some, but not too much, and we'll be up and flying again soon. Far below the cost of a "top overhaul" which involves unbolting several perfectly good cylinders and replacing them with "new" or overhauled ones of unknown quality, with a higher risk of infant mortality. So to answer your question, "top overhauls" are optional and not really required on this engine, or any other as far as I know. Careful management will extend your cylinder life. We do oil analysis and are watching for signs that it's time to do the major overhaul, which could come any time. When it does, we'll have a brand new powerplant on a great airframe, ready to go for a long time. No reason to be scared of a mid-time TSIO-360-MB in my opinion. 252's are great planes. Good luck shopping. Quote
Pinecone Posted May 6, 2022 Author Report Posted May 6, 2022 Thanks for all the input. It turns out the plane has had some cylinder work. Planning on putting down a deposit and having the logs looked at, then a pre-purchase. Quote
Pinecone Posted May 7, 2022 Author Report Posted May 7, 2022 On 5/5/2022 at 6:37 PM, Will.iam said: Ironically don't be surprised by the time you contact the seller after mulling this over that the seller already has a buyer in contract. When I was first looking for my mooney in 2019 before the insane buying really got going, I had 3 airplane get sold before I could even get a contract on one to check out, and two of those were 231's and one 252. My plane came up on barnstormer on a saturday and I called him that day to put a contract on it since 252's are so rare to come up, I flew out monday, test flew it, did compression test, swung the gear, looked through all the logbooks just waiting for my funds to clear so I could wire him the money, all the while he was getting calls 2 to 3 times each day, one guy from Europe was ready to buy site unseen and fly over to get it. Obviously getting it for less than his asking price was not going to happen. with each day people checking in to see if my funds fell through or if I had backed out. He was nice enough to let me stay at his house until the funds cleared. I really feel blessed and lucky to have found a 252 as they are so rare and since the motor was run-out, at a price I could afford. Even right now with the motor past TBO I could turn right around and sell it now and make $50,000 easily. All this to say better to get a contract first then dig through the logbooks and plane else by the time you feel it's a good buy someone else has already got a contract on it. Nope, not going to happen. Wired the deposit already. 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted May 7, 2022 Report Posted May 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Pinecone said: Nope, not going to happen. Wired the deposit already. You probably already know this but wiring the deposit to an escrow company like AeroSpace Reports in Oklahoma is common practice when buying an airplane. That way if the pre-buy doesn’t work out it’s a much easier process to get your deposit back. Aerospace Reports can also do a rush on a title package to look over as part of the pre-buy (all airplane records and everything filed on the airplane with the FAA) within 24 hours Mon - Fri. If you’re an AOPA member you get a discount on that. (https://www.aopa.org/about/aopa-partners/aero-space-reports) Quote
A64Pilot Posted May 7, 2022 Report Posted May 7, 2022 Funny how most of the title / escrow services are in OK, likely Oak city, being in the same town as the FAA has to expedite things Quote
Pinecone Posted May 8, 2022 Author Report Posted May 8, 2022 11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: You probably already know this but wiring the deposit to an escrow company like AeroSpace Reports in Oklahoma is common practice when buying an airplane. That way if the pre-buy doesn’t work out it’s a much easier process to get your deposit back. Aerospace Reports can also do a rush on a title package to look over as part of the pre-buy (all airplane records and everything filed on the airplane with the FAA) within 24 hours Mon - Fri. If you’re an AOPA member you get a discount on that. (https://www.aopa.org/about/aopa-partners/aero-space-reports) Yeap, the money was wired to that exact company. 1 Quote
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