$80K for the lowly C?

[Mooneymite]

27 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I too disagree with the word "lowly" in title of this thread. 

  Ha!  Since I own one of these gems, I agree with you.  I used the term "lowly" to bring attention to the $80K for an early model Mooney.

However, "lowly" is in the eyes of the beholder.  I suspect that the jet crowd would consider ALL Mooney's "lowly", primitive, or use other derogatory terms.  Happily you and I know the C is the top choice for discriminating Mooney buyers.  The "lofty J" is just an overpriced, stretched C.

Of course, true Mooney lovers would only own a Mite.  

[Prior owner]

As my D/C Mooney is only half “C”, I am only partially offended… 

 

[carusoam]

MS economic theory rocks!

Go MS!

-a-

[0TreeLemur]

I know of a C that sold with a mid-time engine, three axis AP, weepy tanks, no engine monitor, no WAAS GPS, in the last month in the 60-amu range.   Here's my take on what listing that the OP included:

1.  Newly overhauled engine.  Reputable shop?  If so, add 12 amu's.  If not, question the deal.

2.  Recent tank reseal.  That's a 7 amu add.

3.  New interior.  Add 4 amu's

4.  Recently overhauled B hub prop, add 5 amu's.  no annoying ECI's or reason to overhaul.

5. WAAS gps.  Add 8 amu's

6.  No 3-axis AP, deduct 10 amu's

7.  No primary engine monitor, shame.   This is essential equipment as far as I'm concerned.

8.  Needs a paint job, deduct 15 amu's.

Assuming overhaul was by reputable shop, that l leaves us with: (drum roll):  71 amu's.  80 would be about right if it didn't need a paint job...

80 amus is too high for this C.  But then again, that's the asking price.  Offer 65 and settle on 70 or 71.

My 0.00002 amu's worth.

Fred

 

 

On 3/11/2022 at 7:08 AM, Mooneymite said:

As a long time C owner, I keep an eye on Barnstormers' M20-C listings.  In the past two weeks the (asking) prices have been creeping up into the 70's and today, I see this:

1970 MOONEY M20C RANGER • $80,000 • FOR SALE • 1970 M20C SN: 700089. AFTT 4,540 Engine TSMO: 15 hours. Prop TTSO 75 hours (B hub no NDT required) Tanks resealed in 2019. Interior redone 2021. Has GMA 345 with 4 place jacks, GNS430W (16W) interfaced with MD200-306 CDI, FS210 for wireless FLT plan transfer and AHRS, SL-30 interfaced with KI-204, Trig TT-31 XPDR mode S ADSB out, JPI 700, EI FP-5L interfaced with GNS. PC system work great.The only thing this aircraft would need is a paint Job. Paint is 5/10, Interior is 9/10. I have all logbooks and records since new. Times will continue to go up, I fly it every week. •

Are C's really commanding these prices, or are these price increases just reflecting general inflation?  I've always believed the C was the most bang for the buck, but $80K?

Yes, I know a seller can ask whatever he likes, but are they selling?  Hmmm.  Maybe my C is for sale at 100K?

 

[AdamJD]

As someone who is actively searching for their first owned airplane, I'm feeling this pain.  But it's all relative as many have stated.  I learned in Cessnas and have many hours over the past 19 years in Cessnas.  So I *should* gravitate towards a Cessna.  But the cost of a Cardinal RG or 182 RG is in the upper $100s and well into the $200s.  Whereas a Mooney M20C/E/F, with comparable or better speed and good equipment is going for $80-$100.  I'd love to pay $60 for a really nicely equipped C model, but that's not happening anytime soon.  And with fuel prices skyrocketing, a Bonanza that gets 160kts but burns 13gph might be too much of a compromise.

The bottom line - someone please sell me a well-maintained C/E/F with modern avionics and a mid-time engine for $60k.  Please!!

[Z W]

$80k will barely buy you a tricked-out half-ton pickup truck from the dealer in today's dollars.  For the same money, you can be going 140 knots direct destination on 10 GPH in a C model Mooney.

A few years ago, when C models were topping out at $50k or so, the same was true.

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, Z W said:

$80k will barely buy you a tricked-out half-ton pickup truck from the dealer in today's dollars.  For the same money, you can be going 140 knots direct destination on 10 GPH in a C model Mooney.

A few years ago, when C models were topping out at $50k or so, the same was true.

My C runs 145-148 KTAS, and at 10,000 msl it's more like 8.5 gph.

Love my C!

[DXB]

Unsettling times we live in.  My C is the only major asset I have  other than my '18 Honda Fit that is performing well as an investment at the moment - ironically these two items are the only major assets I own that I do not consider to be investments.

And be careful what you call my plane - if there were a large millennial segment of the Mooney community, referring to the C model as "lowly" would have been labeled hate speech, and this thread along with @Mooneymite would have already been cancelled on Mooneyspace .  

Edited March 14, 2022 by DXB

[thundermustard]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:24 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

Rather than being surprised a C model could be worth so much you should be considering how our money could be worth so little.  This is monetary devaluation aka inflation in action.  Considering the complete incompetency and corruption of our political class I would expect this trend to continue.  Do not be surprised when a C model Mooney is going for 200k and the average home is a cool million, it's likely not that far into the future.  

I don't want to hear anyone bitch about gas prices when you can't find a contractor or buy a reasonably priced airplane. 
A few Covid payments from the previous and current administrations do not explain people spending this much money.
I think the whole country just yelled "yolo" at once.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, thundermustard said:

I don't want to hear anyone bitch about gas prices when you can't find a contractor or buy a reasonably priced airplane. 
A few Covid payments from the previous and current administrations do not explain people spending this much money.
I think the whole country just yelled "yolo" at once.

I don’t know what yolo is, but your right it’s not the covid payments, it’s the “free” money, I say free because the Feds are lending to the big lender money at zero or near zero percent, so it’s free.

Now as a simpleton if inflation is running 10%, then the cost of money to break even has to be 10%. (simpleton math) I know it’s more complex than that but as a simpleton I can’t comprehend it,  any less and your losing money, how do you pay for that?

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/federal-reserve-interest-rates/

Now there is an economic theory that says you can give away money forever and get away with it, but as I’m a simpleton I don’t know what it is.

There is huge political power gained from giving away money, those whom you give it to will vote for you to keep the bread and circuses coming, in fact there is another theory that all democracies will fail when the common folk learn that they can vote themselves bread and circuses because they will do exactly that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

https://issuepedia.org/Voting_for_bread_and_circuses

Yes I understsnd we are not a Democracy, but a Republic.

Bottom line, if we don’t raise interest rates very soon we will be in real trouble, problem is it takes a brave politician to stop the gravy train. because once it stops there will be a period of hardship. It really is the same as individuals with credit cards, you see all of the time people “discover” credit and many live well when they do, so long as they keep running up debt they are happy with all the new possessions that they have, but eventually the bill comes due and has to be paid and there is pain.

But if your in charge you can tear up the bill and let debt accumulate can’t you? So assume your goal is to pass historically huge spending bills, what are your odds of getting that through when people are worried about money? So you keep the pump running for longer than it should.

Now I agree that the economy needed stimulation after Covid, but all it needed was priming, the free money should have ended long ago, but hasn’t.

This isn’t meant as a Political rant, but we have been here before, right at the time I entered the work force in fact and is why I ended up in the Army, because we had just started paying for the largesse and there was pain, and good jobs for young people were far and few.

That was 1981 / 82  Back then it was Jimmy Carter who was the brave politician who raised interest rates to control inflation, knowing I’m sure that it would end his political career. 

Anyway having seen it before I’d just as soon not live through it again, the money pump needs to be stopped NOW.

Just a simpletons opinion, not any kind of political statement

Edited March 14, 2022 by A64Pilot

[thundermustard]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t know what yolo is, but your right it’s not the covid payments, it’s the “free” money, I say free because the Feds are lending to the big lender money at zero or near zero percent, so it’s free.

Now as a simpleton if inflation is running 10%, then the cost of money to break even has to be 10%. (simpleton math) I know it’s more complex than that but as a simpleton I can’t comprehend it,  any less and your losing money, how do you pay for that?

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/federal-reserve-interest-rates/

Now there is an economic theory that says you can give away money forever and get away with it, but as I’m a simpleton I don’t know what it is.

There is huge political power gained from giving away money, those whom you give it to will vote for you to keep the bread and circuses coming, in fact there is another theory that all democracies will fail when the common folk learn that they can vote themselves bread and circuses because they will do exactly that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses

https://issuepedia.org/Voting_for_bread_and_circuses

Yes I understsnd we are not a Democracy, but a Republic.

Bottom line, if we don’t raise interest rates very soon we will be in real trouble, problem is it takes a brave politician to stop the gravy train. because once it stops there will be a period of hardship. It really is the same as individuals with credit cards, you see all of the time people “discover” credit and many live well when they do, so long as they keep running up debt they are happy with all the new possessions that they have, but eventually the bill comes due and has to be paid and there is pain.

But if your in charge you can tear up the bill and let debt accumulate can’t you? So assume your goal is to pass historically huge spending bills, what are your odds of getting that through when people are worried about money? So you keep the pump running for longer than it should.

Now I agree that the economy needed stimulation after Covid, but all it needed was priming, the free money should have ended long ago, but hasn’t.

This isn’t meant as a Political rant, but we have been here before, right at the time I entered the work force in fact and is why I ended up in the Army, because we had just started paying for the largesse and there was pain, and good jobs for young people were far and few.

That was 1981 / 82  Back then it was Jimmy Carter who was the brave politician who raised interest rates to control inflation, knowing I’m sure that it would end his political career. 

Anyway having seen it before I’d just as soon not live through it again, the money pump needs to be stopped NOW.

Just a simpletons opinion, not any kind of political statement

You Only Live Once

[Utah20Gflyer]

3 hours ago, thundermustard said:

I don't want to hear anyone bitch about gas prices when you can't find a contractor or buy a reasonably priced airplane. 
A few Covid payments from the previous and current administrations do not explain people spending this much money.
I think the whole country just yelled "yolo" at once.

For many years the United States has ran massive trade deficits that allowed other countries to amass huge holdings in US dollars. Combine that with the weakening status of the US dollar as world reserve currency and you have a situation where those dollars are returning back to the United States.  Primarily these dollars go into real estate and stocks first  but the people who sell the real estate or stocks to these foreign interests are now flush with money and need something to buy, next step down from income assets are consumptive assets like airplanes or building a second home in Arizona, etc.  That is the primary source of our inflation, essentially decades of deficit spending returning home.  The secondary source is our governments current overspending.   This was all predictable, too bad our politicians are greedy, immature, stupid sell outs.  

[Prior owner]

The plane has been sold… [Edit] whoops, wrong plane. The other C model for $76k has sold

[carusoam]

Wait a sec…

Are we complaining about…

1) the price of the plane…? (Of course… we all do…)

2) the rate of inflation…? (Why not….)

 

Is there a common solution for that…?

1) Buy the plane at today’s price….

2) Use a loan to pay for the plane over time…

3) Your payments will be set for the term of the loan….

4) Your income will hopefully rise with the cost of inflation….

5) You will be paying for today’s plane with tomorrow’s dollars…. (Overall, Your bank won’t be making as much as they hoped for…)

6)  Inflation Rises to 7.9 Percent for February 2022 - The New York Times.

7)  Get both the plane and the raises…

8) When planes, cars, and boats… appear like investments… your inflation rate has become high…. Having good math skills going forwards is going to be more important…

9) Stuff that causes inflation today… has often been in place for a few years already…. And isn’t easily tamed before the next party is already in office…

 

Don’t complain…. Play the hand that you are dealt, well… know what affects your overall costs, and make wise choices….

Ownership starts with the purchase… wait until you see the care and feeding costs over the next years…

 

The efficiency of the Mooney is looking better every day!

Go Mooney!

PP thoughts only, not a finance administrator…

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

On 3/11/2022 at 8:12 AM, Browncbr1 said:

Well, I put all my government covid payments into a separate account which pays for my engine overhaul.  So, really my engine cost is zero to me.   Maybe the right buyer for an $80k C has to think that way.     Prices go up when money is free.  

WOW!!!!  You got a LOT of COVID payment!!!   How did that happen?

[MBDiagMan]

Airplane prices are completely unexplainable right now.

A friend of mine bought my son in laws 172 M with engine at TBO for $45K in August 2020 and sold it for $80K last October.

I have someone begging me to sell them my highly updated /G Cessna 140 for $42.5K and would pay for the annual it’s going through.  

I am afraid to let it get out that I would sell my Mooney.  No telling what kind of offers I would get.

[MBDiagMan]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:59 AM, Hank said:

My C runs 145-148 KTAS, and at 10,000 msl it's more like 8.5 gph.

Love my C!

Hmm…. Verified by a four way run?

[MBDiagMan]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

Wait a sec…

Are we complaining about…

1) the price of the plane…? (Of course… we all do…)

2) the rate of inflation…? (Why not….)

 

Is there a common solution for that…?

1) Buy the plane at today’s price….

2) Use a loan to pay for the plane over time…

3) Your payments will be set for the term of the loan….

4) Your income will hopefully rise with the cost of inflation….

5) You will be paying for today’s plane with tomorrow’s dollars…. (Overall, Your bank won’t be making as much as they hoped for…)

6)  Inflation Rises to 7.9 Percent for February 2022 - The New York Times.

7)  Get both the plane and the raises…

8) When planes, cars, and boats… appear like investments… your inflation rate has become high…. Having good math skills going forwards is going to be more important…

9) Stuff that causes inflation today… has often been in place for a few years already…. And isn’t easily tamed before the next party is already in office…

 

Don’t complain…. Play the hand that you are dealt, well… know what affects your overall costs, and make wise choices….

Ownership starts with the purchase… wait until you see the care and feeding costs over the next years…

 

The efficiency of the Mooney is looking better every day!

Go Mooney!

PP thoughts only, not a finance administrator…

Best regards,

-a-

This all should work in a perfect world.  The question is: how long can we depend on this perfect world you outline?

[Mooneymite]

10 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Hmm…. Verified by a four way run?

Hey!  Wait just a minute.

I thought it was a rule on Mooneyspace that claimed speeds NEVER had to be verified, nor would they be questioned.

We are "brothers-in-truth.  Everyone knows that speed claims are always understated on Mooneyspace.

And yes, my C easily goes 200 knots climbing on a hot day.    

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

Hmm…. Verified by a four way run?

I’m not sure about Hank’s airplane (or Gus’ ) but my M20C with 1/2 fuel will do an actual 149 kts at 8500 MSL, full throttle, leaned for best power.  Verified by a 3-way run and using the formula for the “Horseshoe Heading Technique” specified in the paper referenced with the link, below.

https://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/horseshoe_heading/horseshoehead_screen.pdf

At 2500’ MSL, full power, mixture rich, 2600 rpm, my Garmin GPS/G5 says I’m getting 151 kts TAS.

[MBDiagMan]

4 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Hey!  Wait just a minute.

I thought it was a rule on Mooneyspace that claimed speeds NEVER had to be verified, nor would they be questioned.

We are "brothers-in-truth.  Everyone knows that speed claims are always understated on Mooneyspace.

And yes, my C easily goes 200 knots climbing on a hot day.    

Yeah.  It’s like taxes.  No onesies about their taxes.

[MBDiagMan]

4 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I’m not sure about Hank’s airplane (or Gus’ ) but my M20C with 1/2 fuel will do an actual 149 kts at 8500 MSL, full throttle, leaned for best power.  Verified by a 3-way run and using the formula for the “Horseshoe Heading Technique” specified in the paper referenced with the link, below.

https://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/horseshoe_heading/horseshoehead_screen.pdf

At 2500’ MSL, full power, mixture rich, 2600 rpm, my Garmin GPS/G5 says I’m getting 151 kts TAS.

At what GPH?

Edited March 15, 2022 by MBDiagMan

[Andy95W]

5 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

At what GPH?

At 8500 MSL, right at 10 gph.  Full-tilt at 2500 MSL was up around 13.5 gph.

Not as efficient as an M20E, but not as expensive, either.  Love my ‘C’!

[Z W]

Post your TAS and GPH on Mooneyspace, and within a few hours, someone will be along to post better numbers.  It's the way of things.   

[Mooneymite]

18 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

And yes, my C easily goes 200 knots climbing on a hot day.    

...on 2 gph.