Mooney down at KHEG (Jacksonville, FL)

[Hector]

Folks, just heard a Mooney go down at KHEG. From FlighAware it looks like N3707H. It is registered to an LLC and it does not look like it is based here at KHEG (at least the FBO doesn’t think so). Went down in a subdivision next to the airport. FBO trying to find info on the owner.

 

 

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[aviatoreb]

50 minutes ago, Hector said:

 

Folks, just heard a Mooney go down at KHEG. From FlighAware it looks like N3707H. It is registered to an LLC and it does not look like it is based here at KHEG (at least the FBO doesn’t think so). Went down in a subdivision next to the airport. FBO trying to find info on the owner.

 

 

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Wow / you mean you actually heard it you were that close. Or you heard about it?

hopefully it’s not bad.

erik

 

[GMBrown]

This post should be moved to Safety and Accident Discussion Section...

From FAA files: 

N3707H registered to Sterling Silver Flyers LLC. Missoula Montana.  

M20J, Serial # 24-0907

Edited December 26, 2021 by GMBrown
Posting location suggestion

[Hector]

Two fatalities
Post crash fire

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[mike_elliott]

Hector, if you or anyone else learns of the contact info for deceased Mooney pilot's family, please let me know

 

[201er]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/12/mooney-m20j-fatal-accident-occurred.html?m=1

[StevenL757]

4 hours ago, GMBrown said:

This post should be moved to Safety and Accident Discussion Section...

From FAA files: 

N3707H registered to Sterling Silver Flyers LLC. Missoula Montana.  

M20J, Serial # 24-0907

@irishpilot and @mooniac58

[ArtVandelay]

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a43720&lat=30.276&lon=-81.819&zoom=17.1&showTrace=2021-12-26&trackLabels
Flight Track Log N3707H 26-Dec-2021 (KHEG-KHEG) - FlightAware
Flying incredibly slow.  Winds were light at nearby recording stations at time of crash  - ADSB-Exchange and FlightAware shows taking off and climbing at 56 kts and stalling at  51 kts.

Poor climb rates for such slow speeds, looks like was following the interstate and then came back, possibly an engine problem?

[Hector]

There was some discussion at the airport they had been working on the engine last Friday and again today but I don’t have a reliable source for that. My initial post indicated he may not have been based at Herlong but it now appears he is based out of KHEG and I think it was the J in the row of hangers next to mine. If it’s the Mooney I think it is, I briefly spoke with the owner a while back but did not know him personally.


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[Hector]

Hector, if you or anyone else learns of the contact info for deceased Mooney pilot's family, please let me know
 

Mike I sure will. I suspect I know but don’t have confirmation yet.


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[carusoam]

Jimmy posted a news video…

In a different thread.

-a-

 

[kortopates]

more info here:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/12/mooney-m20j-fatal-accident-occurred.html?m=1


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[201Steve]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Poor climb rates for such slow speeds, looks like was following the interstate and then came back, possibly an engine problem?

That’s the problem with all of these hero stories where people limp it back to the airport. Lots of people have died passing acceptable landing spots on the way back to the airport.  This may not be what happened here but, but it’s worth pondering. 

[201er]

8 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

The performance of the plane definitely looks deficient for a J. - In fact it looks more like a C-172.   Look at the ADSB-Exchange track. (FlightAware has little or no detail on altitude).  KHEG field elevation is 86 ft. Winds at nearby KJAX at 10:56 AM EST were 12 mph from the W. Times are EST. 

 I copied the data into a file.  Times are EST.

The Mooney got to 2650 ft. and maneuvered to the north before returning to Herlong.  For some reason at 10:57:00 and more then 3 nm. from the airport he descended below pattern altitude.  He flew the downwind at about 700 ft AGL. Look at his landing approach from 11:02:00 to 11:02:21.  He was only doing 51 kts ground speed and KJAX was reporting 12 mph W.  So maybe his true air speed was 61kts which is right on the ragged edge of stalling while landing.  Looks like a touch and go and then taking off at the same deficient speed.

[WAFI]

WOW!!! I was in and out of KHEG for the past four days taking mutable family members up for rides before departing back to KHWO last night. I’m pretty sure I met the gentleman on the ramp maybe Christmas Eve or the day before. He was doing some preflight, adding air to his tires, oil, etc… We exchange a “Merry Christmas” but that’s about all. My thoughts and prayers for the family. 

There was three other Mooney’s at KHEG last night 1730ish and held short for one more be before departing on RWY25. Didn’t know there was such a Mooney presence in North Florida. 

[201er]

METAR KHEG 261555Z AUTO 23008KT CLR 21/18 A3014 RMK AO2=

Speed in knots.

The lower track is the initial departure. The upper track is the go-around leading to the presumed crash. With an 8 knot headwind reported, he never made more than 60KIAS in the climb. However this is about 5 knots slower than the first departure and the last known point appears to be a turn to crosswind. Straight ahead stall speed with gear and flaps 15 degrees is 57 knots. 63 knots clean. 

This appears consistent with prior habits. On the previously logged flight on December 17, this airplane made multiple flights around the traffic pattern with the ground speed logged as low as 69mph just prior to crosswind turn. That is 60 knots ground speed. And an 8 knot headwind reported. That’s around 68KIAS.  Stalls clean at 64KIAS in 20 degree bank.

METAR KHEG 171835Z AUTO 15008KT CLR 26/17 A3020 RMK AO2=

Speed in MPH

There is no need for an engine failure, heart attack, or other factor outside the pilot’s control when flying that close to the edge of stall. A small gust of wind, overbank, pull up, or skid could be enough to send the plane over the edge and into a spin.

[WAFI]

Can anyone confirm it was a J model or have a past pic of the plane? Not that is matters, I just want to confirm it was the plane I am thinking of. 

[toto]

5 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Can anyone confirm it was a J model or have a past pic of the plane? 

FAA lists it as a J model, serial number above from @GMBrown

[201er]

4 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Can anyone confirm it was a J model or have a past pic of the plane? 

24-0907 is 1979

 

https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquiry/Search/NNumberResult?nNumberTxt=3707H
 

[WAFI]

31 minutes ago, 201er said:

METAR KHEG 261555Z AUTO 23008KT CLR 21/18 A3014 RMK AO2=

Speed in knots.

The lower track is the initial departure. The upper track is the go-around leading to the presumed crash. With an 8 knot headwind reported, he never made more than 60KIAS in the climb. However this is about 5 knots slower than the first departure and the last known point appears to be a turn to crosswind. Straight ahead stall speed with gear and flaps 15 degrees is 57 knots. 63 knots clean. 

This appears consistent with prior habits. On the previously logged flight on December 17, this airplane made multiple flights around the traffic pattern with the ground speed logged as low as 69mph just prior to crosswind turn. That is 60 knots ground speed. And an 8 knot headwind reported. That’s around 68KIAS.  Stalls clean at 64KIAS in 20 degree bank.

METAR KHEG 171835Z AUTO 15008KT CLR 26/17 A3020 RMK AO2=

Speed in MPH

There is no need for an engine failure, heart attack, or other factor outside the pilot’s control when flying that close to the edge of stall. A small gust of wind, overbank, pull up, or skid could be enough to send the plane over the edge and into a spin.

Is there anyway those speeds can be incorrect? It would be exhausting flying that slow next to the stall speed for that long, right? Especially for multiple flights. Maybe not, what do I know. 

[201er]

7 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Is there anyway those speeds can be incorrect? It would be exhausting flying that slow next to the stall speed for that long, right? Especially for multiple flights. Maybe not, what do I know. 

I wouldn't trust them for exact numbers but pretty close. But, we don't know the exact wind at that moment and particularly at that altitude. Could be that winds above tree line were brisk and you can add 5-20 knots to that estimated airspeed. However, it is still pretty apparent that the airplane wasn't flying on the fast side of the spectrum.

[WAFI]

30 minutes ago, 201er said:

I wouldn't trust them for exact numbers but pretty close. But, we don't know the exact wind at that moment and particularly at that altitude. Could be that winds above tree line were brisk and you can add 5-20 knots to that estimated airspeed. However, it is still pretty apparent that the airplane wasn't flying on the fast side of the spectrum.

 

23 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

ADS is accurate.  The question is why would a J model Mooney be flying at speeds and performance like a C-172 during all phases of flight.  Surely not intentionally - no one would take off with less than full power.  There must have been something seriously wrong with the engine.  Maybe the gear were also stuck down.

Totally agree… It’s just hard to believe someone would fly that long at that speed without trying to land and sort something out. The only thing I can come up with is the gear went up at after take off, engine didn’t produce power during climb and then had trouble getting the gear down electrically explaining the extend flight time. Being so close to stall speed and then manually trying to manually extend gear, resulting in more drag, less speed, then immediate stall. Just speculating and trying to put myself in the pilots shoes. 

[ArtVandelay]

There is no need for an engine failure, heart attack, or other factor outside the pilot’s control when flying that close to the edge of stall. A small gust of wind, overbank, pull up, or skid could be enough to send the plane over the edge and into a spin.

There’s no way a J could have such anemic climb/speed rates without completely ignoring training and the POH.

[irishpilot]

Thread moved to Safety & Accident section. 

[N201MKTurbo]

It seems strange that he would be flying too slow. Most people with low time in type tend to fly too fast, not too slow. 

There has been times when I was flying patterns that I would just leave the gear down. I don't see that much difference at the low speeds. I usually climb to 500 feet or the end of the runway, which ever comes first, with the gear down anyway. If I forget to put the gear up (see post on stupid pilot tricks) I don't notice it until I trim for cruise (Why is my plane so slow? Oh crap, they let me fly planes?). I make fun of myself a bit on here, but those who have never made a mistake, just haven't flown enough. Let's just try to keep it to the non fatal ones.