buying M20J

[Claudio Robetto]

Hi, I am looking for a Mooney M20J to buy and fly it within USA and nearby country as tourism.

I found this one located at Kokomo KOKK for sale and want to have opinions and be adviced:

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1979+mooney+m20j+n4773h/796

Is it worth? I am new in Mooney community, my friend Oscar Avalle suggested me to sign in Mooneyspace and ask.

Thank you all in advance!

[Oscar Avalle]

Hi, I am looking for a Mooney M20J to buy and fly it within USA and nearby country as tourism.
I found this one located at Kokomo KOKK for sale and want to have opinions and be adviced:
http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1979+mooney+m20j+n4773h/796
Is it worth? I am new in Mooney community, my friend Oscar Avalle suggested me to sign in Mooneyspace and ask.
Thank you all in advance!

Claudio, welcome on board! I am sure that our virtual mooney Friends will be able to advise you on this or other planes. I was suggesting as an alternative an M20E….


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[ArtVandelay]

It’s only has about 300 hours since overhaul in 2012 with fews hours in the past 2 years and looking at the logs, no repairs since 2012…just annual inspections. That kind of history makes me nervous, at the very least I would have a thorough prebuy inspection and expect teething problems when you start flying it regularly from delayed maintenance.
Are you close enough to look at it? I found pictures aren’t don’t always tell the whole story.

[LANCECASPER]

It looks like a clean airframe and will get you where you want to go. However, once you start to think about a new panel I could see $60,000 - $75,000 being spent easily since you are not even starting with a WAAS GPS. It would be less expensive to spend more and find one that has most of what you want. In other words, someone who has taken an airplane like this and spent a lot of money on it already, since they won't get their full investment back in most cases. When one like that comes along though, you need to have everything in place to buy it. The good ones go fast. I just sold a Bravo that I spent six years updating. It sold within a week and passed the pre-buy with zero issues.

[N9405V]

Check out the “aircraft classifieds” section.


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[WaynePierce]

Even in today's market I think this is way overpriced. Non Waas, Non ADS-B, Lancecasper is right.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

It looks like a clean airframe and will get you where you want to go. However, once you start to think about a new panel I could see $60,000 - $75,000 being spent easily since you are not even starting with a WAAS GPS. It would be less expensive to spend more and find one that has most of what you want. In other words, someone who has taken an airplane like this and spent a lot of money on it already, since they won't get their full investment back in most cases. When one like that comes along though, you need to have everything in place to buy it. The good ones go fast. I just sold a Bravo that I spent six years updating. It sold within a week and passed the pre-buy with zero issues.

I don't want to create a debate but I honestly don't understand this line of thinking.  There are a lot of pilots that won't or can't spend $60K on avionics and I don't think it's necessary.  If necessary, and for me it's not necessary, that Garmin 430 could be swapped out with a used overhauled Garmin 430W easily for way less than $8K.  All it needs its an antenna and RF cable upgrade.  I just had my 430 overhauled by Garmin for less than $2K and it's great; like new.  GTX-327s can be had cheap and GDL82s aren't that expensive or difficult to install.  Steam gauges are fine; easy to see, reliable, and relatively cheap to overhaul.  It doesn't take $60K to create a nice useful panel.  I hate to see us discouraging new potential owners.  Not everyone has money burning a hole in their pocket.  They just want to fly safely.  

I think this one needs a look for similar money:  http://www.skywagons.com/airplanes-forsale/1981-m20j-201-129900-here-placerville-n1138n

Edited December 2, 2021 by DCarlton

[201er]

3 hours ago, Claudio Robetto said:

 

I found this one located at Kokomo KOKK for sale and want to have opinions and be adviced:

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1979+mooney+m20j+n4773h/796

Is it worth? 

No.  But the real question is if it’s worth it to you? You’re not gonna find one much cheaper in this market. If it’s something you need and want then you might go for it.

[DCarlton]

9 minutes ago, 201er said:

No.  But the real question is if it’s worth it to you? You’re not gonna find one much cheaper in this market. If it’s something you need and want then you might go for it.

All three M20's on their web site show pending sale.  Good grief the market is nuts.  

[Claudio Robetto]

31 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I don't want to create a debate but I honestly don't understand this line of thinking.  There are a lot of pilots that won't or can't spend $60K on avionics and I don't think it's necessary.  If necessary, and for me it's not necessary, that Garmin 430 could be swapped out with a used overhauled Garmin 430W easily for way less than $8K.  All it needs its an antenna and RF cable upgrade.  I just had my 430 overhauled by Garmin for less than $2K and it's great; like new.  GTX-327s can be had cheap and GDL82s aren't that expensive or difficult to install.  Steam gauges are fine; easy to see, reliable, and relatively cheap to overhaul.  It doesn't take $60K to create a nice useful panel.  I hate to see us discouraging new potential owners.  Not everyone has money burning a hole in their pocket.  They just want to fly safely.  

I think this one needs a look for similar money:  http://www.skywagons.com/airplanes-forsale/1981-m20j-201-129900-here-placerville-n1138n

Thanks! I wrote to that 1981 but no answer…

[Bolter]

4 hours ago, Claudio Robetto said:

Hi, I am looking for a Mooney M20J to buy and fly it within USA and nearby country as tourism.

I found this one located at Kokomo KOKK for sale and want to have opinions and be adviced:

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1979+mooney+m20j+n4773h/796

Is it worth? I am new in Mooney community, my friend Oscar Avalle suggested me to sign in Mooneyspace and ask.

Thank you all in advance!

Claudio,

You should get familiar with the different versions of the M20J.  Which years have 1-piece bellies, split/removable rear seats, different controls, and more.  Jimmy Garrison's M20J evaluation guide includes that history.  Someone else has a spreadsheet showing when these features were phased in.  

-dan

[201er]

36 minutes ago, Bolter said:

Claudio,

You should get familiar with the different versions of the M20J.  Which years have 1-piece bellies, split/removable rear seats, different controls, and more.  Jimmy Garrison's M20J evaluation guide includes that history.  Someone else has a spreadsheet showing when these features were phased in.  

-dan

If there was a normal offering of them then yes… but right now they sell before they even hit the market!

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, 201er said:

If there was a normal offering of them then yes… but right now they sell before they even hit the market!

Exactly the reason to learn the differences in model years, and decide ahead of time which years he is interested in. Then when one comes available, if it's the right year, he can react immediately.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

I don't want to create a debate but I honestly don't understand this line of thinking.  There are a lot of pilots that won't or can't spend $60K on avionics and I don't think it's necessary.  If necessary, and for me it's not necessary, that Garmin 430 could be swapped out with a used overhauled Garmin 430W easily for way less than $8K.  All it needs its an antenna and RF cable upgrade.  I just had my 430 overhauled by Garmin for less than $2K and it's great; like new.  GTX-327s can be had cheap and GDL82s aren't that expensive or difficult to install.  Steam gauges are fine; easy to see, reliable, and relatively cheap to overhaul.  It doesn't take $60K to create a nice useful panel.  I hate to see us discouraging new potential owners.  Not everyone has money burning a hole in their pocket.  They just want to fly safely.  

I think this one needs a look for similar money:  http://www.skywagons.com/airplanes-forsale/1981-m20j-201-129900-here-placerville-n1138n

If you look at the first words of my post, "It looks like a clean airframe and will get you where you want to go." Put an iPad on the yoke and fly it that way, no problem. 

After that I mentioned that once he started looking a new panel, which almost everyone starts doing at some point, then it could get expensive. Here's why I say that:

The autopilot is 42 years old. No one in their right mind would advise him to throw money at that if it starts to malfunction (if all of its functions are all even still working now). If he was to replace it right now, he has the choice of a GFC500 or an STEC, either of which will be $17,000 or more. There may be more options down the road, but a lot of people have been holding their breath on that. But then what does he need to interface with that? Steam gauges? No. He needs at minimum Two G5's or GI-275's,  or a G3X and one G5 or GI-275. Say another $10,000 - $20,000 depending on which way he goes. Yes he could swap his 430 for a WAAS 430 and re-do the antenna and cable, but that is just kicking the can down the road. These units came out in the late 90's and Garmin only has parts for so long. Add a GTN650xi or 750xi throws another $12,000 - $18,000 in there.

Leaving it alone and just flying it with steam gauges is fine, until at 42 years of age they start failing one at a time. The point I was making was: fly it the way it is and get where you want to go or plan for a new panel down the road. Having done this a few times, in my opinion, the least desirable and most expensive way to do it is two or three or four stages of building the panel you want. That is the way some of us have had to do it in recent years since the everything wasn't introduced all at the same time or for financial reasons. Now there are solutions which allow you to get everything that interfaces and be good for the next decade or two. (If Dynon ever does get their autopilot certified for a Mooney, this would be a good candidate for a lower budget full Dynon panel. $45,000 instead of $60,000.)

At this point in time my advice is leave it the way it is, fly it, or plan it the way you want and do it all at once. Piece-mealing a panel is expensive and trying to get everything to talk to each other between stages is frustrating. 

He is going to get a lot of different opinions, yours, mine and many others. That's all that they are is opinions, not encouragement or discouragement on buying an airplane. With all of that information then he can make up his own mind.

[DCarlton]

22 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you look at the first words of my post, "It looks like a clean airframe and will get you where you want to go." Put an iPad on the yoke and fly it that way, no problem. 

After that I mentioned that once he started looking a new panel, which almost everyone starts doing at some point, then it could get expensive. Here's why I say that:

The autopilot is 42 years old. No one in their right mind would advise him to throw money at that if it starts to malfunction (if all of its functions are all even still working now). If he was to replace it right now, he has the choice of a GFC500 or an STEC, either of which will be $17,000 or more. There may be more options down the road, but a lot of people have been holding their breath on that. But then what does he need to interface with that? Steam gauges? No. He needs at minimum Two G5's or GI-275's,  or a G3X and one G5 or GI-275. Say another $10,000 - $20,000 depending on which way he goes. Yes he could swap his 430 for a WAAS 430 and re-do the antenna and cable, but that is just kicking the can down the road. These units came out in the late 90's and Garmin only has parts for so long. Add a GTN650xi or 750xi throws another $12,000 - $18,000 in there.

Leaving it alone and just flying it with steam gauges is fine, until at 42 years of age they start failing one at a time. The point I was making was: fly it the way it is and get where you want to go or plan for a new panel down the road. Having done this a few times, in my opinion, the least desirable and most expensive way to do it is two or three or four stages of building the panel you want. That is the way some of us have had to do it in recent years since the everything wasn't introduced all at the same time or for financial reasons. Now there are solutions which allow you to get everything that interfaces and be good for the next decade or two. (If Dynon ever does get their autopilot certified for a Mooney, this would be a good candidate for a lower budget full Dynon panel. $45,000 instead of $60,000.)

At this point in time my advice is leave it the way it is, fly it, or plan it the way you want and do it all at once. Piece-mealing a panel is expensive and trying to get everything to talk to each other between stages is frustrating. 

He is going to get a lot of different opinions, yours, mine and many others. That's all that they are is opinions, not encouragement or discouragement on buying an airplane. With all of that information then he can make up his own mind.

Great discussion. The autopilot is the one thing that tends to break the bank and dictate all of the other requirements.  If I were to buy again, I would be very happy with steam gauges on the pilots side, one G5 in the AI position, a GNS-530W (or similar upgrade).  I prefer discrete instruments that can be repaired; not all in one systems; pitot static instruments are simple, elegant and reliable (with no software and no databases).  So what would be the one autopilot that you would recommend having in an older plane that can be repaired or overhauled?  One that will get you down the road for another 10 years?  

BTW, I've been flying my '67F for a couple of decades now and I've overhauled the autopilot once.  It cost me maybe $2500.  It doesn't track GPS; only a heading bug, but it's good enough for me.  

Edited December 2, 2021 by DCarlton

[WaynePierce]

I would also highly recommend that you get on Jimmy Garrison's email list for planes he has coming in before they are listed. He sells many planes that way, that's how I got my J.

Jimmy Garrison

Office 830-438-4081

Cell 210-872-1110 (If I don't answer, please text - I don't check voicemail often)

Mailing Address:

P.O. Box 1223

Boerne, TX 78006

GMax Email Address: jimmy@GMaxamericanaircraft.com

[LANCECASPER]

28 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

So what would be the one autopilot that you would recommend having in an older plane that can be repaired or overhauled?  One that will get you down the road for another 10 years?  

If the AeroCruze 100 (TruTrak) ever gets approved for the Mooney that would be the easiest on the budget.$5000 plus install

[N9405V]

If the AeroCruze 100 (TruTrak) ever gets approved for the Mooney that would be the easiest on the budget.$5000 plus install

That was the promise with her GFC500 and looks at where we are right now. The least expensive quote I have gotten for a GFC500, no auto trim or yaw damper, and a g5 to drive it was $20k. When you see the install manual you understand why.


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[Hank]

22 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If the AeroCruze 100 (TruTrak) ever gets approved for the Mooney that would be the easiest on the budget.$5000 plus install

If only!!

[ArtVandelay]

If the AeroCruze 100 (TruTrak) ever gets approved for the Mooney that would be the easiest on the budget.$5000 plus install

For vintage models I would go with TT, but for modern models I think saving a few AMUs would be looked on negatively. The GFC is just so much more capable and would be expected in more expensive planes, which the J is.

[Claudio Robetto]

6 hours ago, Bolter said:

Claudio,

You should get familiar with the different versions of the M20J.  Which years have 1-piece bellies, split/removable rear seats, different controls, and more.  Jimmy Garrison's M20J evaluation guide includes that history.  Someone else has a spreadsheet showing when these features were phased in.  

-dan

thats very helpfull ! As Im no familiarized yet

[Claudio Robetto]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

If there was a normal offering of them then yes… but right now they sell before they even hit the market!

Thats true

[DCarlton]

Still hoping that someone will answer the question as to what legacy autopilot is the best to buy in an airplane if you have a choice.  Which one is still supportable and maintainable?  Not a new one; one of the older existing ones.  Century?  King?  STEC?  I'm guessing STEC.  Can the STECs be overhauled and maintained?

[EricJ]

41 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Still hoping that someone will answer the question as to what legacy autopilot is the best to buy in an airplane if you have a choice.  Which one is still supportable and maintainable?  Not a new one; one of the older existing ones.  Century?  King?  STEC?  I'm guessing STEC.  Can the STECs be overhauled and maintained?

The installation costs of a legacy system make it impractical considering the lower reliability and reduced support for the older autopilots.   They come from an age where diagnostic tools weren't very good, and parts can be difficult or impossible to find, so when it does break it can cost comparable to a new installation to get it working again.    For these reasons new installations of legacy autopilots are essentially never considered.    You could be the first in a while, though, so don't let me dissuade you, but that's the general situation.

Example:   I think I've spend about $14k trying to keep my Century III working.    I'm an EE and an A&P and have even shipped some of the boxes off to "more qualified" repairers that have better tools/test stations/documentation.   Much of it was just throwing good money after bad.   I've finally given up and am in the line to get an Aerocruz when they start shipping.   I don't like the way the Garmin servos interface with the pushrods on the Mooney, but that's just me, and by all reports the GFC500, which is available now, is one of the best GA autopilots available functionally.    The rest of us are waiting on BK or Dynon.

 

[DCarlton]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The installation costs of a legacy system make it impractical considering the lower reliability and reduced support for the older autopilots.   They come from an age where diagnostic tools weren't very good, and parts can be difficult or impossible to find, so when it does break it can cost comparable to a new installation to get it working again.    For these reasons new installations of legacy autopilots are essentially never considered.    You could be the first in a while, though, so don't let me dissuade you, but that's the general situation.

Example:   I think I've spend about $14k trying to keep my Century III working.    I'm an EE and an A&P and have even shipped some of the boxes off to "more qualified" repairers that have better tools/test stations/documentation.   Much of it was just throwing good money after bad.   I've finally given up and am in the line to get an Aerocruz when they start shipping.   I don't like the way the Garmin servos interface with the pushrods on the Mooney, but that's just me, and by all reports the GFC500, which is available now, is one of the best GA autopilots available functionally.    The rest of us are waiting on BK or Dynon.

 

If you were shopping for a M20J, would you walk away from an airplane that had an STEC already installed?  Or would you consider it serviceable if it lets you down?  There must be a value associated with the legacy autopilots already installed.  Some must have more value than others.  That's what I'm trying to ask.  Are they all junk?  I was able to repair my Brittain for less than $1000 this year; I've kept it going for almost 20.  Any love for any of the other older ones?