Help with CIES fuel senders in G model Mooney!!!

[Utah20Gflyer]

Hello Mooney Community,

I need some quick feedback.  My 1968 G model Mooney has two 26 gallons wing tanks so I assumed that I would need only two fuel tank senders but CIES has made me four (I ordered two) and now wants payment for four.  I was under the assumption you only needed 4 Senders if you had 64 gallons like in the F,J and maybe K.  C models with 52 gallon capacity use 2 senders.  So am I correct or is CIES correct?  

Sincerely, 

A guy who wants fuel gauges that work, 

Thanks!

[DXB]

18 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Hello Mooney Community,

I need some quick feedback.  My 1968 G model Mooney has two 26 gallons wing tanks so I assumed that I would need only two fuel tank senders but CIES has made me four (I ordered two) and now wants payment for four.  I was under the assumption you only needed 4 Senders if you had 64 gallons like in the F,J and maybe K.  C models with 52 gallon capacity use 2 senders.  So am I correct or is CIES correct?  

Sincerely, 

A guy who wants fuel gauges that work, 

Thanks!

I have two CiES senders in my C with 27.4 gallon/side bladders.  You need 2 senders.

[ShuRugal]

Send me your spare pair, CiES senders are next on my list

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[Janat83]

The service manual calls for 2 fuel Senders per tank, needs to be confirmed by your mechanic or with someone who already installed them.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I believe the service manual covers several models which have different fuel tank set ups so not sure the diagram you may be referencing would be applicable to my G model.  
 

looking at this J model diagram it looks like the outer fuel level senders mount horizontally through the side of the outer rib.  Can anyone with experience with a 4 sender set up verify this for me?  My fuel fill opening is right next to the outer wall of the tank so I would think I could easily see it if that were the case.   I have never observed a fuel sender in that position.   Seems like I could double check by opening the access panel just outside the fuel tank?  
 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, ShuRugal said:

Send me your spare pair, CiES senders are next on my list

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I think the outer and inner are different so no luck I think.  

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Hello Mooney Community,

I need some quick feedback.  My 1968 G model Mooney has two 26 gallons wing tanks so I assumed that I would need only two fuel tank senders but CIES has made me four (I ordered two) and now wants payment for four.  I was under the assumption you only needed 4 Senders if you had 64 gallons like in the F,J and maybe K.  C models with 52 gallon capacity use 2 senders.  So am I correct or is CIES correct?  

Sincerely, 

A guy who wants fuel gauges that work, 

Thanks!

Since CIES does this every day, I'm going to bet on them, but who knows? Scott Philbin from CIES knows more about senders than anyone in the industry.

According to Aircraft Spruce F and newer model Mooneys use 4 senders, but they've been wrong before .. 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I went out to the airport and opened up the access panel on the outboard side of the wing and didn't find any sender.  Also inspected the tank from the inside and no sign of outboard sender.   I could be wrong but someone is going to have to show me where these things are if they really exist on G model Mooney with 26 gallon tanks. See attached picture of outboard side of tank. 

I suspect CIES incorrectly assumed that because every other model  F and after had 64 or greater capacity and two senders per side that G models do as well but that doesn't seem to be the case as they have the same tanks as a C model.  

Happy to be proven wrong though.  

 

 

[carusoam]

52 gallon tanks definitely have only two floats, one in each tank… (M20C)

102 gallon tanks definitely have four float sensors, two in each tank… (M20R)

We could ask Phil why your 52 gallon tanks got four float sensors…  @fuellevel…

If you don’t have four floats in your tanks already…

Do you want to add the extra pair of floats?

It may add to the accuracy of the volume reading system….

Does your single float hit the top of the tank (or any other limit) before you are done filling it? (This is a limit of a single float system)

Our tank geometry gets funky as it heads up hill… adding extra volume, adds to the funkiness…

The M20R also got its tank fill location moved further out on the wing… because of the same funkiness…

So…. Test the one float system to see how many gallons you can put in the tank before the single float stops moving….  If it is a float from a 26 gallon tank… it may stop at 26 gallons…  adding extra fuel beyond that is a bonus… it just doesn’t get accounted for… 

Since you ordered a two float system, and got four floats and got charged for them too… expect that there was an error involved with the order….

It would be great if the extra sensors improved the function of the system…. But, I think they designed the float arms specifically for the Mooney tanks already…. No extra floats required…. (?)

There is a video of an interview with the Ceis guy that just hit the web yesterday… left over from KOSH earlier this year…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Background for the M20G…

It is very much like the Modern day M20S…

The S was delivered as a scaled down version of the Ovation…. You paid less and got less as well…. Lower HP, less fuel in the tank… and some electric systems and fancy badges as well….

 

The fun part….  The M20S and M20G can be returned to the full glory of the M20R and M20F…. for a few dollars and some effort…

And for a few dollars more….  Bring the M20G up to the M20J of the 90s….   
 

Some people will do this for their much loved forever-plane… probably after the kids have moved out of the house….

Mooney economics are always fun/quirky….

Best regards,

-a-

[David Lloyd]

I think CIES just got it wrong about the G, thinking it is like an F with 32 gallon tanks and a180 hp engine. A G is a C with C wings, 26 gallon tanks and an F fuselage.  The 26 gallon tanks have only one sender per tank.

[KSMooniac]

I concur with David. CiES cannot know every little nuance in every line of aircraft so I think they just made an assumption that G comes after F, so they just be the similar. Call them up and educate them, and I'm sure they'll make it right.

I don't think you can simply convert to a 4 sender system, either. You would need an STC or field approval to do so.

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[Marauder]

16 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I went out to the airport and opened up the access panel on the outboard side of the wing and didn't find any sender.  Also inspected the tank from the inside and no sign of outboard sender.   I could be wrong but someone is going to have to show me where these things are if they really exist on G model Mooney with 26 gallon tanks. See attached picture of outboard side of tank. 

I suspect CIES incorrectly assumed that because every other model  F and after had 64 or greater capacity and two senders per side that G models do as well but that doesn't seem to be the case as they have the same tanks as a C model.  

Happy to be proven wrong though.  

 

 

If your original wet wings are originally 26 gallons per side, you only have 2 senders. If you have 64 gallon tanks, you will need 4 senders.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I was able to get a hold of someone at CIES today and worked out the issue.  They are going to send the issue to engineering and have them review it to see if they need to change the application guide for the G model.   They are changing the order to 2 senders and billing accordingly.  

Thanks everyone for your help. 

Craig

[N9405V]

What’s the lead time? I ordered a set for my E about 4 weeks ago. Hoping the get here soon.


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[carusoam]

The power of MS is pretty good… 

-a-

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, N9405V said:

What’s the lead time? I ordered a set for my E about 4 weeks ago. Hoping the get here soon.


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I haven't received them yet but it's been about three weeks and I just paid for them today.  My understanding is they don't bill for them until they are complete so I'm hoping they will ship any day now.  Hopefully that is the case as my plane is in annual now and I'm hoping it won't delay things. 

Did you already get invoiced?  If so how long ago?   Originally I was quoted the 10th of November for a ship date. Hoping they under promised and are going to over deliver??

[PT20J]

Took about 4 weeks to get mine.

[Utah20Gflyer]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

Took about 4 weeks to get mine.

Next week would be 4 weeks for me.  Fingers crossed that happens so I can get my annual wrapped up in a reasonable time frame. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

On 11/3/2021 at 6:53 PM, N9405V said:

What’s the lead time? I ordered a set for my E about 4 weeks ago. Hoping the get here soon.


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Looks like it took just shy of 4 weeks, pretty happy with the turn around.

Although they did still send me 4 senders but charged for 2 so looks like I’ll have to mail 2 back to them.   
 

thanks again everyone!