Traffic Pattern Conflict With Warrior

[Ragsf15e]

51 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Hi guys, I'm a cfi at princeton, near linden, uncontrolled. Probably spend about 6 hours a day in the air around here. Ya know, not every circumstance is spelled out in the regs and we all have to share the same sandbox:)  In general if you are approaching a field you should yield to anyone in the pattern. Lots of student training occurs at these little airports and the crews can be saturated or you may be dealing with a solo student pilot. Add in old equipment and bad radios. if I understand this correctly by the time you reached the warroir you were or would have been in trail and overtaking which means you have a duty to avoid. Either way you should have executed a right 360 on dw for spacing. As for the talking...uncontrolled field...no radio required. Some a/c have no electrical so dont expect people to talk to you and traffic in the pattern is under no obligation to coordinate your arrival. Be the bigger man and more experienced aviator and use your superior skills to manage the situation:) A lot of these guys could use your help in making things easier to manage for them:)

Agree in general, and I agree that the guy in the pattern likely had (at least sort of) the right of way, but the warrior pilot needs to be better about talking on the radio and listening for conflicts.  While I agree we don’t need a radio at an uncontrolled field, when we have one we should use it effectively and not make excuses for students and pilots who aren’t current.  
 

A simple call by the warrior pilot to the Mooney after the Mooney repirted 3 miles dw saying he would extend upwind or was turning crosswind and didn’t see the Mooney probably would have avoided a conflict.

I’ve given enough dual to know that if both the student and instructor are task saturated in the pattern, they are missing lots of other important safety issues and the student is unlikely to be learning much when they are that far behind.

I think we should hold ourselves and others to a higher standard instead of making excuses for being behind.  And doing it respectfully… Now that’s much easier said than done, but that’s the hard part about being an instructor!

Edited November 2, 2021 by Ragsf15e

[steingar]

One of the most sacred aviation rules in the book of Steingar.  If I see or hear something I don't like while approaching an airport, I go elsewhere.  Too easy to wind up dead in an airplane.  If it's my home field I'll go look at fields or clouds for a few minutes.  Like @skydvrboy said, lots and lots of things can happen in the landing pattern.  One of the reasons my airplane is always dirtied up  before I enter the downwind.  

Of course, another piece of wisdom from the Book of Steingar, if everyone around you is an asshole then maybe the asshole is you.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Pete M said:

Hi guys, I'm a cfi at princeton, near linden, uncontrolled. Probably spend about 6 hours a day in the air around here. Ya know, not every circumstance is spelled out in the regs and we all have to share the same sandbox:)  In general if you are approaching a field you should yield to anyone in the pattern. Lots of student training occurs at these little airports and the crews can be saturated or you may be dealing with a solo student pilot. Add in old equipment and bad radios. if I understand this correctly by the time you reached the warroir you were or would have been in trail and overtaking which means you have a duty to avoid. Either way you should have executed a right 360 on dw for spacing. As for the talking...uncontrolled field...no radio required. Some a/c have no electrical so dont expect people to talk to you and traffic in the pattern is under no obligation to coordinate your arrival. Be the bigger man and more experienced aviator and use your superior skills to manage the situation:) A lot of these guys could use your help in making things easier to manage for them:)

I don't agree with using 360's for spacing at uncontrolled airports.  Your situational awareness goes to heck during a 360, and you're going to turn right back into the pattern?  The whole point of making the 45 into the pattern is to enter with good SA.

If there's something risky enough to make a 360, it's risky enough to break out, and from the downwind and base it's easy and quick enough to break out and return to the 45.  On final you'd climb and fly the upwind, of course.

At a towered field, sure, no problem, especially with the extra set of eyeballs in the tower helping you keep SA. 

Also, I'd point out that the original poster EXPECTED to be ahead of the warrior on downwind, and was surprised by the early crosswind turn.  I can certain understand the advice to "expect the unexpected," but I find that to be fairly useless advice  That part of the pattern, in particular, is a bad place to break out or do a 360 since you now have to turn through an area where people may be coming in on the 45 while your attention is drawn to something inside the pattern.  I think that's a pretty good argument to try to avoid entering straight into the downwind leg, if you're coming from that direction it's only a tiny detour to come in on the 45

Edited November 2, 2021 by jaylw314

[MooneyMitch]

39 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That part of the pattern, in particular, is a bad place to break out or do a 360 since you now have to turn through an area where people may be coming in on the 45 while your attention is drawn to something inside the pattern

I appreciate your thoughts and input.

My original post stating I’d do a 360 was based on me not having entered the downwind leg yet, but much further out prior to. 

Agree, turning into potential traffic ( announced or not), on a 45 entry could certainly be dangerous.

Regardless, knowing of a potential conflict would trigger me to make adjustments so as to avoid it all together.

[Bob E]

201er, I'm wondering why that situation was so troubling that you would post such a long and condescending description of the other pilot, along with a gratuitous photo of some guy pushing a Cherokee.  Your post wasn't in the Safety & Accident forum, and you didn't mention filing a NASA report, so it almost seems as though your post is an aerial version of a traffic rant: "That guy cut me off"!

Your profile says you are based in NYC. I learned to fly at Teterboro and I've spent lots of time sharing NYC airspace with other GA aircraft (see my profile photo). The patterns are crowded, and especially in the NYC area one can encounter just about anything. Some examples of stuff I've encountered (not NYC airspace): Calling out pattern legs at night at a small field, only to discover - on short final - a helicopter hovering with lights out above the numbers on the arrival end of the runway.  Flying over Ripon into KOSH and after rocking my wings, having TWO aircraft whose pilots apparently never even saw me cut me off at the same altitude.  Here in Ohio after calling pattern legs and starting to turn final, seeing a private jet fly right in front of me doing a straight-in approach. This stuff happens all the time.  Being a safe pilot means taking it in stride when someone messes up. Assume that they didn't do it deliberately but just screwed up or were distracted or both. 

A couple more examples:  About 15 years ago I was landing at a major airport with a heavy crosswind, #2 behind a twin. The twin ran off the runway and buried a wing; fortunately no one was hurt. I simply did a go-around before ATC realized what had happened.  Another time in the early 1990s I saw how an aircraft that was #1 for landing landed gear-up just ahead of another aircraft that was #2. The #2 pilot just broke off the approach. These sorts of responses to abnormal circumstances is normal situation awareness -- just do whatever is necessary to stay safe.  No need to get annoyed.  By the way the pilot of that gear-up #1 aircraft was me.

[201er]

3 hours ago, Bob E said:

201er, I'm wondering why that situation was so troubling that you would post such a long and condescending description of the other pilot, along with a gratuitous photo of some guy pushing a Cherokee.  Your post wasn't in the Safety & Accident forum, and you didn't mention filing a NASA report, so it almost seems as though your post is an aerial version of a traffic rant: "That guy cut me off"!

I did file a NASA report before even thinking of Mooneyspace. Is it necessary that I share that?

I don't care that the guy cut me off accidentally. My displeasure was the absolute inability to communicate with him despite him being on CTAF. I wasn't the only pilot trying to get his attention about it. Even someone from airport staff who heard what went down on CTAF came by to express frustration/sympathy about the situation.

Tonight I came into the pattern at Central Jersey and there was a Cherokee making a go around while I was on a opposite direction GPS circle to land approach. We calmly worked it out on CTAF who would be where and when and there was no conflict whatsoever. It's all about acting in a predictable manner but when you don't, at least communicating well about it.

[EricJ]

11 minutes ago, 201er said:

Tonight I came into the pattern at Central Jersey and there was a Cherokee making a go around while I was on a opposite direction GPS circle to land approach. We calmly worked it out on CTAF who would be where and when and there was no conflict whatsoever. It's all about acting in a predictable manner but when you don't, at least communicating well about it.

I was doing a practice GPS approach at an airport in SE AZ that normally has little to no traffic.    Of course, the channel was dark until I showed up and starting announcing my position, at which point the usual young instructor voice in a Skyhawk started announcing at the same time.   After he inquired I indicated I was not going to land, just do the approach and then go around, he indicated he had time to just get in front of me and would land first.   I said that was fine, and I proceeded to the IF.   A bit later he announced a different position, same voice in a Skyhawk, but indicated he was now behind me and would follow me in on the approach.   Okay, fine, no problem, thanks for the update.

When I was on final pretty close to the DA a Skyhawk suddenly turned on final right in front of me, not very far away at all, and definitely close enough to get a verbal exclamation from me.

Turned out it was two different Skyhwarks, and they were both doing exactly what they said they were going to do.   Both voices were indistinguishable to me, and both just announced as "Skyhawk".

[Smiles201]

Glad to hear that you filed a NASA report. There are disabled pilots out there and we should not be shy about alerting those who can more fully assess the situation. Never seën someone push with the spinner! 

[201er]

1 hour ago, Smiles201 said:

Glad to hear that you filed a NASA report. There are disabled pilots out there and we should not be shy about alerting those who can more fully assess the situation. Never seën someone push with the spinner! 

I try not to let NASA reports be solely for when I screw up enough to need one. I try to report uncomfortable moments or learning moments as well. I read their reports from time to time and they have some good lessons from real situations.

I wish I had more social etiquette and drive to be able to discuss these types of circumstances with pilots involved. It just seemed kind of beyond a quick chat when he was unresponsive when called out by the helicopter. Furthermore it made it more awkward that he’s parked a few planes away from mine.

Last time I called a guy out for not communicating in the pattern and pulling out in front of me when I was on short final didn’t go very well cause he’s in charge of an aviation company and I’m nobody. And then he discovered his radio antenna was snafu…

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

How wide do you make your patterns?  If a guy can make his downwind inside of you, you might be too wide.  The easy way to tell is cut power at the abeam position; if you cannot make a power-off-180, you are probably too wide.

[201er]

12 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

How wide do you make your patterns?  If a guy can make his downwind inside of you, you might be too wide.  The easy way to tell is cut power at the abeam position; if you cannot make a power-off-180, you are probably too wide.

I'm amazed how Cessnas can manage to fly a wider pattern than me. I can consistently chop the power abeam and make a power off 180 commercial spot landing. I never changed my pattern when practicing those maneuvers for the commercial checkride so I'm guessing my pattern is the right distance. This Warrior flew it so tight I thought he was over the runway from my vantage point. Like I said, at first I thought he was cutting in because he saw me on downwind and was making an evasive maneuver. However, when unresponsive to everyone's calls, I figured he never saw or heard me and was just flying the pattern how he wanted. My wife watched on the ground and said she was surprised how tight of a pattern that plane was flying.

[drapo]

« Either way, you should have executed a right 360 on dw for spacing »

Up here in Canada, the rules state that all turns in the pattern should be to the left unless a right hand pattern is published. Most probably to favor visibility during those turns. Also, the downwind entry is only permitted if there is no conflict with traffic already in the pattern. 
As a Mooney pilot, I often use those procedures at uncontrolled fields. Rarely do I plan for a downwind entry if I hear someone on the radio or see activity in the pattern. I also often use the 360 turn in the upwind side to add more space with planes already in the pattern, especially at my home airport where lots of training flights operate. Speed is nice, but it also has its downsides 

[GeeBee]

I guess I have to ask. Since when is radio communication required at an uncontrolled field? When I approach an uncontrolled field, I am ready for the no radio Pawnee coming in for maintenance as well as the occasional Aeronca Champ. The indignation at no radio belies the fact, that a radio is not required nor should it be expected.

[Bob E]

12 hours ago, 201er said:

I try not to let NASA reports be solely for when I screw up enough to need one. I try to report uncomfortable moments or learning moments as well. I read their reports from time to time and they have some good lessons from real situations.

I wish I had more social etiquette and drive to be able to discuss these types of circumstances with pilots involved. It just seemed kind of beyond a quick chat when he was unresponsive when called out by the helicopter. Furthermore it made it more awkward that he’s parked a few planes away from mine.

Last time I called a guy out for not communicating in the pattern and pulling out in front of me when I was on short final didn’t go very well cause he’s in charge of an aviation company and I’m nobody. And then he discovered his radio antenna was snafu…

I hear ya.  The one NASA report I filed was as a result of a situation when I was ready to take off from runway 18 (active) and did several radio calls on CTAF.  Other aircraft had departed and had announced etc., and I was now taking the runway. Asked the Cessna pilot sitting on the runup pad at the end of 27 "are you going to take off from 27?"  Got no response.  Checked correct CTAF, waited about a minute and then called takeoff.  Just when it was too late to hit the brakes the Cessna on 27 suddenly rolled off the pad and started his takeoff roll.  I pulled up and cleared the Cessna, coming up fast to my left, by about 100'.  Never did find out who it was -- pre-ADS-B.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I guess I have to ask. Since when is radio communication required at an uncontrolled field? When I approach an uncontrolled field, I am ready for the no radio Pawnee coming in for maintenance as well as the occasional Aeronca Champ. The indignation at no radio belies the fact, that a radio is not required nor should it be expected.

The Warrior driver was using his radio as a one-way communication device, and ignoring everyone else trying to communicate with him. Being completely deaf and dumb is one thing, but transmitting what you're doing while ignoring the response of the world outside is just pig-headed, ignorant and downright rude!

[Little Dipper]

"I joined on an extended left downwind to runway 27. "   I don't get it?  If someone said they were "on a left extended downwind for runway 27"   I would expect them to be past the point where they would normally be turning base.

[201er]

5 minutes ago, Little Dipper said:

"I joined on an extended left downwind to runway 27. "   I don't get it?  If someone said they were "on a left extended downwind for runway 27"   I would expect them to be past the point where they would normally be turning base.

“Mooney 3 to the west entering on an extended left downwind 27”

 

Is there a better way to phrase that?

[MooneyMitch]

I think I should put together a Mooney fly-in at Oceano (L52) and see all the different techniques of pattern work ! 

...... and fun radio calls too 

[MooneyMitch]

32 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

No kidding.  My absolute favorite thing to do at KOSH is to sit at the end of the active runway with a transceiver and watch and listen to the landing traffic.  Good times!  

Jim

That’s as fun as watching those fun video clips of birds marking water landings! 

[aviatoreb]

16 hours ago, Smiles201 said:

Glad to hear that you filed a NASA report. There are disabled pilots out there and we should not be shy about alerting those who can more fully assess the situation. Never seën someone push with the spinner! 

There's several weird things in that picture.  And this isn't even all of them: he is pushing by the spinner and the cowl one hand on each.  Both places you don't want to push.  But he doesn't seem to be leaning into it enough to actually be moving the plane.  I am not sure I have ever seen someone sitting in the plane - the pilot - while expecting someone else to be doing the pushing. The person looks older and less strong than I would guess I would expect to see someone pushing an airplane by themselves, without needing to lean into it and especially with the extra weight of an extra person in the plane, who need not bother to help.  There are other weird things, but we leave it at that.

[squeaky.stow]

While it is easy to assume that someone is just being a jerk, there could be all kinds of other explanations. At an uncontrolled airport, it’s possible to be transmitting but not receiving and be completely unaware of it. Or it can be the reverse.
My embarrassing incident being that “jerk” was the time I spent an hour at my home airport brushing up my taildragger crosswind skills by doing touch and goes on every available runway, including two grass ones, in the Fleet Canuck that belonged to our local classic aircraft club. I made all of the right radio calls as I switched from runway to runway having a grand old time. The only other aircraft in the pattern was sticking with the main runway and I kept him informed of all my changes and ensured I did not conflict with his pattern. On my last circuit another aircraft called inbound for the circuit. The other aircraft in the circuit responded with the active runway and added “watch out for a Canuck doing NORDO circuits on the grass.” 
After I taxied in and shut down, I discovered that I had connected my headset to the passenger side of the portable intercom, which someone had installed upside down on the aft bulkhead. It looked like I was connected to the correct side, I could hear everyone else, and I assumed I was transmitting because I could hear myself on the sidetone. Turns out I was just talking to myself on the intercom. 
I am not sure I would want to hear what that other pilot must have been saying about me!

[Shadrach]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:46 PM, 201er said:

B. I did not do touch and goes, I fly a Mooney.

Performing T&Gs is pilot dependent not airframe dependent.

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

The Warrior driver was using his radio as a one-way communication device, and ignoring everyone else trying to communicate with him. Being completely deaf and dumb is one thing, but transmitting what you're doing while ignoring the response of the world outside is just pig-headed, ignorant and downright rude!

How do you know they are receiving? My point was and is, expect everything and anything in an uncontrolled situation. There is no referee to determine who has his "ears on" or sequence when both are equal distance at the same altitude..  What is the first rule here? We can talk about pattern rules all you want but what is the primary directive?

The primary directive is 91.1139(b) 

"When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each  person operating an  aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. "

After that then we can drill down as to who has right of way. But even though you have the right of way you do not have permission to insist upon it because your absolute first requirement is to see and avoid. You can certainly call the guy a %^%#@, but it does not relieve you from the requirement to avoid a collision. Maybe I drive too much in Atlanta traffic where you get cut off every day without warning, but I found giving grace and forgiveness with a chuckle, greatly simplifies my life  and we all arrive safe.

[201er]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

How do you know they are receiving? My point was and is, expect everything and anything in an uncontrolled situation. There is no referee to determine who has his "ears on" or sequence when both are equal distance at the same altitude..  What is the first rule here? We can talk about pattern rules all you want but what is the primary directive?

I did exactly all of this. I saw and avoided the Warrior. No problem. He announced his turn to crosswind on CTAF, I knew where to look, I quickly spotted him. However, my announcements of position, particularly in direct response to his position, were unresponded and unheeded. He failed to see and avoid me. At least as far as I can tell he failed to deliberately avoid me. It just so happened that he turned downwind inside my downwind. However, none of the subsequent communications implied any awareness of my position whatsoever. 
 

To all of your nordo defendants, it has to go the other way too don’t you think? Shouldn’t that Warrior been looking for me whether I was making calls or not?

I really am not sore about the traffic conflict. These things happen. I just don’t like that someone who is obviously on frequency can fixate only on transmitting and not on the listening and avoiding part. Where exactly do you fault me? I listened, I saw, I avoided, I communicated, I yielded… is it so wrong to be irritated at having to burden the entire responsibility to execute all of these on behalf of both parties?

[MooneyMitch]

1

15 minutes ago, 201er said:

Where exactly do you fault me?

Thinking back to my early days (prehistoric times of 1964 )of driver training, a statement that has always stuck with me......”he was right.......dead right”.

Again, who ever might be right or wrong, I don’t see the point of suspecting a potential conflict and then traveling into it. 

Just my little brain kind of thinking.......