M20M, M20K on a grass runway

[JavadocF16]

After a brief time away from being a Mooney driver, I am thinking about coming back to the fold (the dark  side) but with a faster model than my previous 1994 M20J MSE. The time away was self imposed because I moved onto a 4000' grass runway and despite having some experience landing on grass runways, I just didn't think the day to day worry of ripping off inner gear doors was worth the trouble.

I have 500+ hous in my prior M20J and more night IFR than I like to acknowledge , so I have more than a casual understanding of the Good and the bad of a Mooney.  I am hoping that I can get some first hand experience pro or con statements from Mooney owners that live on or operate on grass regularly. .  I heard all the arguments against a Mooney on a grass runway and had even convinced myself that they were right but there is a visitor that comes to XS09 occasionally and makes T/O and Landings like any other similar SEL aircraft.

 

[ComputerAviator]

Hi. I'm David from Australia. I fly VH-DXS - a 1979 M20J - and operate it from grass/gravel runways (contrary to the POH). Incidents so far are a bent gear door striking the grass when another pilot ran off the centreline a bit on the landing roll, and a tail strike when another guy crossed uneven ground at too high taxi speed. Both these incidents were from very experienced Mooney drivers. Nevertheless, Mooneys can be operated from unprepared strips but the pilot needs to be very careful on taxi speed and location on the aerodrome. Personally, I have not had any issues in the 5 years I have flown ours on grass, but I ALWAYS stick to taxiways and runways. Prop strikes on uneven ground are a real danger too. Mooneys were designed to fly, they do not like being near, or on, the ground. Hope this helps..

[laytonl]

My airpark has two Mooneys, my ‘92J and a ‘ 66C.  Neither I us have had any issues or damage from flying on grass.   With My heavier J I have to limit my TO weight for high temps and tailwinds (one way 3,000’ strip with significant slope.). Lee

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Java said:

After a brief time away from being a Mooney driver, I am thinking about coming back to the fold (the dark  side) but with a faster model than my previous 1994 M20J MSE. The time away was self imposed because I moved onto a 4000' grass runway and despite having some experience landing on grass runways, I just didn't think the day to day worry of ripping off inner gear doors was worth the trouble.

I have 500+ hous in my prior M20J and more night IFR than I like to acknowledge , so I have more than a casual understanding of the Good and the bad of a Mooney.  I am hoping that I can get some first hand experience pro or con statements from Mooney owners that live on or operate on grass regularly. .  I heard all the arguments against a Mooney on a grass runway and had even convinced myself that they were right but there is a visitor that comes to XS09 occasionally and makes T/O and Landings like any other similar SEL aircraft.

 

Can you? Probably.

Should you? Probably not. I only say this because even if it works 99% of the time, there's that one time where you aren't 100% that day or the ground is softer than you were expecting or . . . something else. Plus that little voice in your head is going off or you wouldn't have started the post. 

Since you haven't committed to an airplane yet but you have committed to the runway you'll be using, a Cessna 182 (fixed gear) or 206 works very well for these situations.

[Niko182]

Depends on the strip in my opinion. Ive landed on a couple grass strips in a long body. If its a nice strip, no issues what so ever.

[PeteMc]

I do not land on grass strips "regularly" but I'll toss in my 2 cents that I learned from my first mechanic. 

With my K I've landed at a few strips which were basically taken care of by golf course grounds keepers.  So the strip was level and the grass was short.  So operationally nothing different from the manual and the primary goal of not landing hard.

I've also taken my plane into a field in norther ID which is also in great shape.  HOWEVER, the grass is not all that short.  So I removed the inner gear doors before going up to that field.  Left them off for a few weeks with multiple trips into that field and with no issues with the longer tougher grass without the inner gear doors.  Put them back on before my trip back to the east cost.

[JavadocF16]

6 hours ago, ComputerAviator said:

Hi. I'm David from Australia. I fly VH-DXS - a 1979 M20J - and operate it from grass/gravel runways (contrary to the POH). Incidents so far are a bent gear door striking the grass when another pilot ran off the centreline a bit on the landing roll, and a tail strike when another guy crossed uneven ground at too high taxi speed. Both these incidents were from very experienced Mooney drivers. Nevertheless, Mooneys can be operated from unprepared strips but the pilot needs to be very careful on taxi speed and location on the aerodrome. Personally, I have not had any issues in the 5 years I have flown ours on grass, but I ALWAYS stick to taxiways and runways. Prop strikes on uneven ground are a real danger too. Mooneys were designed to fly, they do not like being near, or on, the ground. Hope this helps..

Thank you for your comments. I wanted to hear from someone that actually operates on grass on a routine basis. Our 4000’ runway is well maintained and I live directly on the runway so my distance to taxi is limited. I doubt I would be operating on any other grass runways except for my home airport. 

[JavadocF16]

4 hours ago, laytonl said:

My airpark has two Mooneys, my ‘92J and a ‘ 66C.  Neither I us have had any issues or damage from flying on grass.   With My heavier J I have to limit my TO weight for high temps and tailwinds (one way 3,000’ strip with significant slope.). Lee

Thank you. I appreciate the comments. I think like any Mooney it takes being careful and methodical about taxi, takeoff and landing. 

[JavadocF16]

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Depends on the strip in my opinion. Ive landed on a couple grass strips in a long body. If its a nice strip, no issues what so ever.

Fortunately our runway is pretty good quality but it won’t be great when it is raining or extended rain. There will be days I won’t be able to takeoff and there are two airports with published approaches each about 15 miles away so on bad weather days , I would have to land at one or the other since our airpark is VFR only.  XS09 will be the only one I fly a Mooney into. 

[JavadocF16]

2 hours ago, PeteMc said:

I do not land on grass strips "regularly" but I'll toss in my 2 cents that I learned from my first mechanic. 

With my K I've landed at a few strips which were basically taken care of by golf course grounds keepers.  So the strip was level and the grass was short.  So operationally nothing different from the manual and the primary goal of not landing hard.

I've also taken my plane into a field in norther ID which is also in great shape.  HOWEVER, the grass is not all that short.  So I removed the inner gear doors before going up to that field.  Left them off for a few weeks with multiple trips into that field and with no issues with the longer tougher grass without the inner gear doors.  Put them back on before my trip back to the east cost.

Thanks for commenting because I am most interested in an M20K or M20M . Our grass is rarely tall but occasionally it can grow significantly between weeekly maintenance. Since I own a Lake Turbo-270 Amphibian I have another aircraft that I can fly when I have the urge to go into an unimproved airfield or water, so I won’t be trying to make the Mooney meet all of my mission requirements. 

[JavadocF16]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Can you? Probably.

Should you? Probably not. I only say this because even if it works 99% of the time, there's that one time where you aren't 100% that day or the ground is softer than you were expecting or . . . something else. Plus that little voice in your head is going off or you wouldn't have started the post. 

Since you haven't committed to an airplane yet but you have committed to the runway you'll be using, a Cessna 182 (fixed gear) or 206 works very well for these situations.

Thanks for the input. I moved from SATX 3 years ago, so I am pretty familiar with the good, the bad and the ugly of XS09.  I have a Lake Turbo 270 Renegade and 1947 Navion L17C that are both excellent on the grass runway but are both slow boats to the final destination. The Navion is on the market , so I can purcahse an airplane that will fill my cross country mission requirements. I respect your opinion but I would rather have a sharp stick in my eye , than to own a Cessna 182. The goal for returning to MooneySpace was to glean any nuggets of wisdom Ithat I can in helping me make my purchase decision. And the group has certainly helped me with my decision. So far, nothing has scared me off. 

[Z W]

You can always remove the inner gear doors.  Ours have been off for some time, developed some cracking, need to get around to repairs or a new set.  Probably costing a knot or two in cruise but who knows.

Landed an M20C on grass a couple of times, no big deal.  No grass operations in the M20K except for at KOSH where it has done fine.  Taxi slow.  I would land on a nice grass runway if the mission called for it without too much concern.  If I were based there and could be familiar with current conditions I think that would make me feel better about it, not worse.  Gopher holes and ruts leading to a prop strike are what I worry about with an unknown turf strip.

[A64Pilot]

There are two Moonies at our Airpark, my J model and one with a turbo IO-540, we both have lower gear doors and have no problem at all.

We fly in and out weekly.

 However I learned this morning, things are much smoother with lower than spec tire press.

Edited October 24, 2021 by A64Pilot

[exM20K]

If the grass is well maintained and the surface smooth, it shouldn’t be a problem.  If you ding a gear door, you’re not on a good (or ru way) surface :-) The biggest threat to under-control operations is chunks of snow and ice left behind after snow removal.  Those can really foul up a gear door.

I had my 231 in and out of FL90 (north captivate island, fl) a handful of times without stress.

interestingly, the POHfor my Acclaim Type S has no grass takeoff or landing info.  It’s blank pages watermarked as “pending Data.”  
 

That’s no big deal to me.  Grass surfaces vary so much in quality, length and type of grass as to make “Official, Approved” grass data the midpoint of a huge distribution…. Or a wild a.. guess.

-dan

 

[JavadocF16]

Thanks for all of the input. No one had the sort of Intel that would waive me off from being a Mooney driver again, especially now that I plan to move up to a faster version.I just need to answer that nagging question by have experienced pilots share their thoughts. Again...THANK YOU Many years ago, I flew into San Antonio to look at a Bravo. My (now ex ) wife asked about the oxygen ports and I explained their function to her. She stated flatly that she would not fly in a plane that she would be required to wear O2. She threw a fit and I gave in to her rant. I eventually bought a great 1994 M20J but it never really met my mission requirements. I was commuting from my home on  Maryland Eastern Shore to my ANG squadron in SC and teaching in San Antonio at the AF hospital so I needed to fly higher and faster.  I eventually transfered to the DCANG but my full-time job sent me from MD to SATX, , go figure. Key take away-  dump the obstructive wife and buy the correct aircraft for the mission.   If you do all requured maintainence and splurge of expensuve upgrades the aircraft is far less likely to fail you and the cost of operation can be planned out on a spreadsheet. Regards John Hermann

[Fabio]

Hi,
from my experience, unprepared grass strips with a solid underground are actually really good (if mantained properly). We have landed on some and to be honest, there are some far better than paved ones. We fly in Europe (primarly in Italy) and we had good experiences with strips near rocky riverbeds (the principle is similar to railways, the gravel there absorbs the weight really well, so do the landing strips with gravel underground).
I heard of some guys landing on grass strips, that they remove the gear covers that are mounted beside the wheel. That cover is there for creating a smooth aerodynamic shape when the gear is retracted and are the parts that are more likely to touch ground.

[thinwing]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:02 AM, JavadocF16 said:

Thanks for all of the input. No one had the sort of Intel that would waive me off from being a Mooney driver again, especially now that I plan to move up to a faster version.I just need to answer that nagging question by have experienced pilots share their thoughts. Again...THANK YOU Many years ago, I flew into San Antonio to look at a Bravo. My (now ex ) wife asked about the oxygen ports and I explained their function to her. She stated flatly that she would not fly in a plane that she would be required to wear O2. She threw a fit and I gave in to her rant. I eventually bought a great 1994 M20J but it never really met my mission requirements. I was commuting from my home on  Maryland Eastern Shore to my ANG squadron in SC and teaching in San Antonio at the AF hospital so I needed to fly higher and faster.  I eventually transfered to the DCANG but my full-time job sent me from MD to SATX, , go figure. Key take away-  dump the obstructive wife and buy the correct aircraft for the mission.   If you do all requured maintainence and splurge of expensuve upgrades the aircraft is far less likely to fail you and the cost of operation can be planned out on a spreadsheet. Regards John Hermann

well John ,sounds like you have all your ducks in a row...too bad about the wife at the time nixing the bravo purchase..its been the perfect all season traveler for us.I have a lot of time in Lakes..loved their handling but not docking...ended up with a husky on amphibs...talk about slow boat ..

[RobertGary1]

Most of the grass strips I’ve taken the Aeronca would certainly damage a Mooney. It really depends on the field, how deep the gopher holes are and if someone drive across the runway after the last rain making a hidden rut under the grass. I’d absolutely walk it each time first 

[RobertGary1]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:11 AM, Fabio said:

Hi,
from my experience, unprepared grass strips with a solid underground are actually really good (if mantained properly). We have landed on some and to be honest, there are some far better than paved ones. We fly in Europe (primarly in Italy) and we had good experiences with strips near rocky riverbeds (the principle is similar to railways, the gravel there absorbs the weight really well, so do the landing strips with gravel underground).
I heard of some guys landing on grass strips, that they remove the gear covers that are mounted beside the wheel. That cover is there for creating a smooth aerodynamic shape when the gear is retracted and are the parts that are more likely to touch ground.

Gravel means you need to plan frequent blade replacements. There is a reason taildraggers have their prop pitched high off the ground. 

[RobertGary1]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:02 AM, JavadocF16 said:

Thanks for all of the input. No one had the sort of Intel that would waive me off from being a Mooney driver again, especially now that I plan to move up to a faster version.I just need to answer that nagging question by have experienced pilots share their thoughts. Again...THANK YOU Many years ago, I flew into San Antonio to look at a Bravo. My (now ex ) wife asked about the oxygen ports and I explained their function to her. She stated flatly that she would not fly in a plane that she would be required to wear O2. She threw a fit and I gave in to her rant. I eventually bought a great 1994 M20J but it never really met my mission requirements. I was commuting from my home on  Maryland Eastern Shore to my ANG squadron in SC and teaching in San Antonio at the AF hospital so I needed to fly higher and faster.  I eventually transfered to the DCANG but my full-time job sent me from MD to SATX, , go figure. Key take away-  dump the obstructive wife and buy the correct aircraft for the mission.   If you do all requured maintainence and splurge of expensuve upgrades the aircraft is far less likely to fail you and the cost of operation can be planned out on a spreadsheet. Regards John Hermann

I thought that for the first 15 years of ownership. Then a piston departed the engine on climb out at 1050 SFNEW and cost me an unexpected $50k. 

[Warren Dunes]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:45 PM, ComputerAviator said:

I fly... a 1979 M20J - and operate it from grass/gravel runways (contrary to the POH)... 

The C model I fly has an eleven page typed "FAA approved Aircraft Flight Manual," I also carry a later 60 page POH for an A1A powered short fuselage because it contains performance charts. Neither have any warnings or prohibitions concerning turf, although all of the takeoff and landing charts are marked "no wind - standard temperature - hard surface."

I've been landing and taking off from turf for years, nice maintained grass not gopher colonies. Weights were as high as gross on takeoff and as low as 1800 on landing. As stated I found that softer tires work better on grass. I've never removed a door, never significantly dinged one on grass (don't ask about ice). Grass concerns me less than ice, snow, sand, gravel, conch shells, or rain.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Warren Dunes

[ArtVandelay]

I thought that for the first 15 years of ownership. Then a piston departed the engine on climb out at 1050 SFNEW and cost me an unexpected $50k. 

I’d be thrilled if I were you if that’s all it cost you.

Depends on the quality of the grass strip, if it’s at all rough I would not consider it.