How low can you go on an approach? Video of a LIFR ILS and what allowed me to go below minimums without seeing the runway.

[Fly_M20R]

The perfect day came with LIFR ceilings at Brunswick GA (KBQK) and IFR at FHB for me to go "play in the clouds" and see how low I could go at KBQK. Could I get down below DA without actually seeing the runway? 

As it turns out I could have landed but opted to do the missed approach at KBQK and fly back to KFHB after one turn at the hold. Had to do an RNAV into KFHB.

Great IFR day!!!

Chris Koppel

 

 

 

[Deb]

Terrific video with great learning points! Thanks for taking the time to make such an excellent video.

[mike_elliott]

Nicely done

[donkaye]

Well done video and nicely flown.  However, I personally think using speed brakes as part of an approach configuration could be problematic if living in places other than Florida.  In cold conditions they WILL freeze in the up position.  I think a power setting and configuration (gear and approach flaps) without them would be better suited.

[David Lloyd]

Nice video Chris, lots of useful illustrations and examples of two instrument approaches.  A few things jotted down:  Typical enroute IFR, between layers for the most part.  Great illustration of a LIFR ILS.  At minimums, do you see what you need or not?  Have it figured out before you get there.  They called it one mile and 1/2 mile minimum, what did you see? MALSR, the lights are 200' apart, equally spaced from the first flasher to the runway end.  Think there are 15 of 'em, so a little over half mile.  FAA ever asks how you determined you had visibility, there's the answer.  I liked you review the missed, initial heading and altitude out loud.  Was that for us or you?  I always said it out loud, helped me remember while I was doing other things.  Did you ID the ILS?  Back at Ferdandina, you asked ATC to clarify, direct or full.  Not sure, ask.  Late turn on the LPV, it happens, don't get excited, unless they turned you short, there is plenty of time.  Another typical instrument approach, decent ceiling and vis.  Seemed to me there were two types of destination weather: LIFR as the first approach and almost VFR like the second.

That is how it's done.  Did you change your air filters?

[Fly_M20R]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Well done video and nicely flown.  However, I personally think using speed brakes as part of an approach configuration could be problematic if living in places other than Florida.  In cold conditions they WILL freeze in the up position.  I think a power setting and configuration (gear and approach flaps) without them would be better suited.

 

Great point Don! Happy you brought that up because us Floridians rarely have to deal with ice during an instrument approach. I would reduce power by 2 or so inches of MP to achieve same KIAS as with the speed brakes out. 

Speed brakes are nice during an approach because in general one will descend at 500 fpm and maintain same speed by deploying them and then simply retract to stop the descent. No need to adjust throttle. However, I found out that the speed brakes on my 1995 Ovation are just a bit larger than the ones I had in a 2005 Bravo and the rate of descent is almost twice as much.  Mooney must have changed the speed brakes at some point in time or with models. 

Thank you for your input!! We are always adding to our knowledge base in these forums.

[Fly_M20R]

1 hour ago, David Lloyd said:

Nice video Chris, lots of useful illustrations and examples of two instrument approaches.  A few things jotted down:  Typical enroute IFR, between layers for the most part.  Great illustration of a LIFR ILS.  At minimums, do you see what you need or not?  Have it figured out before you get there.  They called it one mile and 1/2 mile minimum, what did you see? MALSR, the lights are 200' apart, equally spaced from the first flasher to the runway end.  Think there are 15 of 'em, so a little over half mile.  FAA ever asks how you determined you had visibility, there's the answer.  I liked you review the missed, initial heading and altitude out loud.  Was that for us or you?  I always said it out loud, helped me remember while I was doing other things.  Did you ID the ILS?  Back at Ferdandina, you asked ATC to clarify, direct or full.  Not sure, ask.  Late turn on the LPV, it happens, don't get excited, unless they turned you short, there is plenty of time.  Another typical instrument approach, decent ceiling and vis.  Seemed to me there were two types of destination weather: LIFR as the first approach and almost VFR like the second.

That is how it's done.  Did you change your air filters?

Thank you David!

We are continuously learning as pilots as well as refreshing stuff that we don't use often. I did when I flew the ILS and definitely when I did the video since had to think through it in more detail. 

If you check out the diagram I have attached for a 3 degree sloped approach, you will notice that one descends at 300 ft / nautical mile. Approximating 6,000 ft/NM, at 200 ft above TDZE (~AGL) one is 2/3 NM (4,000 ft) from the TDZ, but ~3,000 ft (1/2 NM) from the runway threshold. With 1/2 mile visibility one should be able to see the threshold IF the ceiling is exactly 200 feet throughout. However if the ceiling is variable as it was in this ILS approach one may not be able to see the threshold at 200' AGL even if one sees the MALSR since they are sort of "below" you. By seeing the MALSR one can descend below the DA but not below 100' above TDZE. With adequate visibility and ceiling now above 100' one can see the runway "environment" and land. 

The MALSR actually has 12 total lights spaced by 200' with 5 flashing lights extending from 1400' to 2400' from the threshold. At 200' AGL one is unlikely to see the flashers (I did not see them) since they are below the nose. If one were higher, say 300' then we can see the flashers if not totally in the soup.  I attached the nice diagram that Code7700 made out. In real life they are not as "squat" as in the diagram, but a definitely longer image. 

I am really happy that my 530W, GI275 and KFC are well in sync so that the plane flew the localizer and GS perfectly to show the MALSR right on the nose!!!

I did not listen to the LOC ID. My bad! The 530W does identify it and shows me which LOC to which it is tuned. It will not place it in the active frequency when loading or activating the approach. One has to do that manually. Easy step to forget when it gets busy. 

To answer your question, I try to verbalize everything I check as a habit and reviewed the missed approach proc out loud for myself. Auditory input helps with memory. 

I had the air filter cleaned at the annual in Willmar, MN as per procedure. Not sure why you ask. Is it because of my flight up there in July and August with all the smoke?

Thank you for your comments David!! Always to the point!

Chris

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Nicely done

Thank you Mike!

[Fly_M20R]

3 hours ago, Deb said:

Terrific video with great learning points! Thanks for taking the time to make such an excellent video.

Thank you Deb!

[David Lloyd]

Chris, Just poking you  a bit about the ID.  It is very easy to forget when everything comes alive where it should.

Your iPad had the filter change reminder pop up.

That was good.  Gonna watch it again.  Reminds me of the old days.  Uh except for the GPS, clear radio communications, all the neat stuff, etc.

[Fly_M20R]

1 minute ago, David Lloyd said:

Your iPad had the filter change reminder pop up.

!!!!  That is hilarious!!!!  You were definitely "taking notes"!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

.... and to answer your question: Nope, I did not change them that day. 

[Fly_M20R]

That reminder was for the home A/C filters. 

[eman1200]

Chris, Just poking you  a bit about the ID….

Norm Macdonald’s bit about ‘ID’ being the strangest abbreviation is pretty funny. With the ‘I’ standing for, well, I, and the D….short for Dentification…..

We lost a good one there.

[carusoam]

Great discussion Chris!

Saying stuff out loud to improve its memory has a name…. Cog therapists call it Verbal Mediation… 

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

Excellent video with great narration.

But, and I'm sorry, when you called out the Localizer minimums, I laughed out loud because I couldn't help hearing Jerry W's voice saying, "secondary minimums." 

Jokes aside, I'd love to see one doing approaches focused completely on a GI275 closeup. With no Garmin trainer for PC or iPad, videos are really the only way to learn some of the tips and tricks  of daily operation. Most I've seen have been way too simplistic. The snippets in yours - like setting minimums - are great.

Edited September 17, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

@Fly_M20R's video also prompted me to upload a file to our library. It's a pdf with the approach light system layout graphics depicting format and measurements from Code7700 . The file is bookmarked for easy reference. 

[Fly_M20R]

16 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great discussion Chris!

Saying stuff out loud to improve its memory has a name…. Cog therapists call it Verbal Mediation… 

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you Anthony!!

Well.... I didn't know it had a name. I love Mooneyspace because so many smart people always contribute to our knowledge base!!

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Excellent video with great narration.

But, and I'm sorry, when you called out the Localizer minimums, I laughed out loud because I couldn't help hearing Jerry W's voice saying, "secondary minimums." 

Jokes aside, I'd love to see one doing approaches focused completely on a GI275 closeup. With no Garmin trainer for PC or iPad, videos are really the only way to learn some of the tips and trucks of daily operation. Most I've seen have been way too simplistic. The snippets in yours - like setting minimums - are great.

Thank you midlifeflyer!!

Glad you got a laugh out my calling out the LOC minimums reminding you of Jerry W! 

I can certainly do a video just showing the GI275 throughout the whole approach.   I think that only seeing one view may bore some watchers and so will lose interest. I am open to suggestions. Definitely have one camera set up for that.

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

6 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

@Fly_M20R's video also prompted me to upload a file to our library. It's a pdf with the approach light system layout graphics depicting format and measurements from Code7700 . The file is bookmarked for easy reference. 

Where do I find uploaded files in the forum?

Code7700 has done a superb job in explaining ALS and runway lighting!! I go back and refer to it regularly to refresh my memory!

[midlifeflyer]

19 minutes ago, Fly_M20R said:

Thank you midlifeflyer!!

Glad you got a laugh out my calling out the LOC minimums reminding you of Jerry W! 

I can certainly do a video just showing the GI275 throughout the whole approach.   I think that only seeing one view may bore some watchers and so will lose interest. I am open to suggestions. Definitely have one camera set up for that.

Chris

It can be short and focused. The videos I did demonstrating tasks using the Garmin and Avidyne navigators my not have mass appeal, but they are the most watched and commented videos on my small channel   

[midlifeflyer]

20 minutes ago, Fly_M20R said:

Where do I find uploaded files in the forum?

 

 

[David Lloyd]

16 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great discussion Chris!

Saying stuff out loud to improve its memory has a name…. Cog therapists call it Verbal Mediation… 

Best regards,

-a-

I Verbally Meditate a lot.  Frequently when the wife leaves the room.