CALL FOR OPINIONS: Oxygen Systems

[Brandontwalker]

I am moving into a turbo Mooney and, for the first time, am assessing options on different oxygen systems.  The plane I am purchasing has a built in system with a 115cf tank.  What are you guys running?  Direct cannulas/masks? Oxysaver cannulas?  Pulse Demand (Mountain High O2D2/Precise Flight/Others...)? What about masks?  Are you using a standard mask or one with a built in mic (I don't even know how communications would work with a mic-less mask)?

I am leaning toward a pulse demand system at present, but I am a bit of a minimalist and want to keep the hoses neat and hidden.  Also, I have seen pics of some MH installs and they conflict with my preferred cup holder location :).  With that said, let's hear your opinions and show off your install pics!

Brandon

[Niko182]

The O2D2 is definetely worthwhile. I dont have it but i want it. Ive used the alps mask with the mic and it was nice but i returned it and am waiting for the large size to come in stock. +1 for the alps mask as well.

[Boilermonkey]

I have a Bravo with the built in system.  I use the Oxysaver cannulas right now and they work well.  My airport doesn't have O2 service, so I had to get tanks, a filling system, and put it in the hangar.  It cost about $500 to get everything, but now the cost of filling up the tank is pretty low.  Hence I am not planning to get a pulse demand system since it would take a long time to get a reasonable payback.   Moreover, it's another thing to clutter up the cabin or fail.

I am thinking about the alps mask and mic ...just don't know how often I would use it.  I moved up from a M20C to the M20M in April and haven't seen too many flights where going higher than 18K would have made a big difference.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Suggest you first get a pulse oximeter and try a few flights wearing cánula while cruising in the mid-teens.  Adjust the oxygen flow for >92% saturation.   

If you’re comfortable with that then consider buying a good mask and/or O2D2. 

[Brandontwalker]

4 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Suggest you first get a pulse oximeter and try a few flights wearing cánula while cruising in the mid-teens.  Adjust the oxygen flow for >92% saturation.   

If you’re comfortable with that then consider buying a good mask and/or O2D2. 

I absolutely agree.  I have two pulse oximeters (one for me and one for passengers).  

[Brandontwalker]

9 minutes ago, Boilermonkey said:

I have a Bravo with the built in system.  I use the Oxysaver cannulas right now and they work well.  My airport doesn't have O2 service, so I had to get tanks, a filling system, and put it in the hangar.  It cost about $500 to get everything, but now the cost of filling up the tank is pretty low.  Hence I am not planning to get a pulse demand system since it would take a long time to get a reasonable payback.   Moreover, it's another thing to clutter up the cabin or fail.

I am thinking about the alps mask and mic ...just don't know how often I would use it.  I moved up from a M20C to the M20M in April and haven't seen too many flights where going higher than 18K would have made a big difference.

I am unsure if my airport has O2, but, like you, I have a refill station in my hangar for the portable system I used in my J for flights in the low teens and night cross country flights.  I used Oxysaver cannulas with that system, but am expecting more frequent O2 level flights with the new plane.  Frankly, the clutter aspect is what gives me the most pause with a pulse demand system.

[kortopates]

I personally would hold off on any mods or additions to your O2 system. Fly with your system as is while you get to know it and the issues that can go wrong and before you venture higher than the upper teens be sure to have some form of backup O2 immediately available. The built-in system is simple elegance and as reliable as you can get. With the 115 cuft 2 people can fly across the country and back without a refill. But once you add on you're now introducing new failure points, (and electrical power dependencies), and thus more complications. When going that route, consider too the Precise Flight pulse system since it purely mechanical, requires no power, and supposedly fail-safes to full flow if its fails; but may not be compatible with the altitude compensating regulator. 

[mike_elliott]

Shameless plug mode = ON

Scott with Aerox will be a Mooney owner in the near future, and is a kind sponsor this year of the Mooney Summit. Reach out to him for your O needs, great guy! Highly recommend supporting those who support the Mooney community

https://www.aerox.com/

Shameless plug mode = off

[Brandontwalker]

1 minute ago, mike_elliott said:

Shameless plug mode = ON

Scott with Aerox will be a Mooney owner in the near future, and is a kind sponsor this year of the Mooney Summit. Reach out to him for your O needs, great guy!

https://www.aerox.com/

Shameless plug mode = off

Alright Scott...  Let's hear your best sales pitch.  

[A64Pilot]

I’ve had the Aerox portable system for a long time and while I don’t use it as much as you guys, it’s been flawless for over a decade, it just works and has never needed anything, I assume it ought to have its regulator serviced due to age, but don’t know.

The MH pulse demand system was desirable, I didn’t want to pay for it, and now I’m glad I didn’t as has been said it’s more complex and more complex isn’t always good, and I really didn’t need it.

By all means do your own fills, you can knock out a fill hose for pennies compared to what they sell for and a couple of bottles is all you need, even one actually, you don’t need a full cascade, but your refills are pennies, where I’ve heard some pay as much as $100 per fill.

The source of ALL O2 whether it be aviator breathing O2 or medical O2 or welding O2 is the big Dewer of liquid O2 out back of the place that fills bottles, I’ve heard but can’t verify that medical bottles are sterilized where others aren’t. I have no idea if that’s true or not, probably just rumor.

Avove FL 180 I believe you need a mask, this is I believe a MH mask, it’s my understanding that the ones without a mic are meant for passengers as ones with a mic aren’t cheap. It fits well and is relatively comfortable and doesn’t have a big bag hanging under it.

One thing that caused me some issue that I never thought about until the day of the test is that a mask interferes with glasses, You can see in the pic how they rode high, making it so I was looking through the reading portion of them normally without having to look down, if I flew with a mask often, I’d get a pair of glasses to fit the mask.

A mask eats up a LOT of O2 compared to O2 conserving cannula’s, a LOT, but I don’t use it anymore, I just don’t go that high.

Edited August 12, 2021 by A64Pilot

[59Moonster]

27 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I’ve heard but can’t verify that medical bottles are sterilized where others aren’t.

Oxygen in those concentrations will also sterilize. Now if there are other particles, dust, etc... those would remain. But would also be sterile. 

[jaylw314]

Rebreather cannulae (oxymizer and such) are fantastic below 10,000' or so, but they start becoming less efficient and finally top out above 16,000' or so, where they basically become the same as full flow cannulae, where you're wasting 80% of the oxygen coming out of them.  Once you're in the flight levels, the amount of oxygen you're wasting essentially becomes ridiculous as the flow requirement increases.  It might be practical if you had an infinite supply of oxygen like an oxygen concentrator, though I don't know what kind of flow rates they can get at altitude.  Didn't someone here try that out?

Are there any rebreather oxygen masks out there?  I don't think I've ever seen one except for the old WWII movies.

 

 

[kortopates]

The real difference in any breathing O2 and welding O2, is not the source or moisture content. All O2 comes from the same totally dry source these days by nature of the manufacturing process. But the unique thing about any breathing O2 (medical and aviators) is that your bottle is cleaned (not sterilized) by a process I'll just describe as vacuuming it out - that's a requirment that does not apply to welding O2. Although the source is sterile, your bottle maybe far from it if the bottle's pressure was allowed to drop to zero. Additionally Aviators O2 is tested for moisture and logged - really a step that's pretty much redundant given the gas industries manufacturuing methodologies of today. But I am very happy to pay a bit more to have my bottle cleaned with every fill. And the truth is, that although I own 2 large bottles for refilling my onboard tank, each time I refill my large bottles I am exchanging them for a fresh filled pair. 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Rebreather cannulae (oxymizer and such) are fantastic below 10,000' or so, but they start becoming less efficient and finally top out above 16,000' or so, where they basically become the same as full flow cannulae, where you're wasting 80% of the oxygen coming out of them.  Once you're in the flight levels, the amount of oxygen you're wasting essentially becomes ridiculous as the flow requirement increases.  It might be practical if you had an infinite supply of oxygen like an oxygen concentrator, though I don't know what kind of flow rates they can get at altitude.  Didn't someone here try that out?

Are there any rebreather oxygen masks out there?  I don't think I've ever seen one except for the old WWII movies.

 

 

Not rebreathers that I’m aware of but concentrators, but limited to 180. At high altitude, I’d want a back up portable system.

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/industry-news/editorial/o2-concentrators-inogen-aviator-is-tops/

We had an NIU on the AH-64 or Nitrogen Inerting Unit, it was an O2 concentrator, but it threw the O2 overboard and pumped the Nitrogen into the fuel cells so that they wouldn’t explode, it had twin zeolite resin cartridges and made nearly pure O2, but we threw it away, but i never had one break so they must be very reliable.

For a re-breather to work, you have to breathe through a loop. and have a snoflolime cartridge in the loop to absorb CO2. For that reason you need two very large hoses like a very old SCUBA system, be way uncomfortable, plus pumping air through the system is tiring.

Edited August 12, 2021 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

The problem with oxygen concentrator, is the energy they use. They need an air compressor. I wonder if an engine mounted compressor, one that would go on a vacuum pump pad, and then put the rest of the works in the tail. You could probably make a concentrator that would supply everybody in the plane forever.

It would be a nice engineering exercise. I could do it in my spare time as soon as I’m done with the portable autopilot. 

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Not rebreathers that I’m aware of but concentrators, but limited to 180. At high altitude, I’d want a back up portable system.

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/industry-news/editorial/o2-concentrators-inogen-aviator-is-tops/

We had an NIU on the AH-64 or Nitrogen Inerting Unit, it was an O2 concentrator, but it threw the O2 overboard and pumped the Nitrogen into the fuel cells so that they wouldn’t explode, it had twin zeolite resin cartridges and made nearly pure O2, but we threw it away, but i never had one break so they must be very reliable.

For a re-breather to work, you have to breathe through a loop. and have a snoflolime cartridge in the loop to absorb CO2. For that reason you need two very large hoses like a very old SCUBA system, be way uncomfortable, plus pumping air through the system is tiring.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.  "Rebreather" in medical equipment is different from "rebreather" in SCUBA.  I was referring to medical equipment, where "rebreather" is simply an inline reservoir to store oxygen flow and some exhaled air during exhalation (and by definition, the user rebreathes some of the exhaled air).  Very different from diving "rebreather," which is more of a CO2 scrubbing kit.

That's interesting about the NIU, do other aircraft (that fly high enough for pilots to use oxygen) actually use one unit to generate oxygen and inert the fuel tanks?

Edited August 12, 2021 by jaylw314

[StevenL757]

7 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

I am moving into a turbo Mooney and, for the first time, am assessing options on different oxygen systems.  The plane I am purchasing has a built in system with a 115cf tank.  What are you guys running?  Direct cannulas/masks? Oxysaver cannulas?  Pulse Demand (Mountain High O2D2/Precise Flight/Others...)? What about masks?  Are you using a standard mask or one with a built in mic (I don't even know how communications would work with a mic-less mask)?

I am leaning toward a pulse demand system at present, but I am a bit of a minimalist and want to keep the hoses neat and hidden.  Also, I have seen pics of some MH installs and they conflict with my preferred cup holder location :).  With that said, let's hear your opinions and show off your install pics!

Brandon

Highly suggest you forget the cannula and get masks.  At the higher altitudes you’ll likely be utilizing your new turbo Mooney, cannulas don’t quite cut it.  Also forget about any additions to your O2 system and run natively.  Your O2 system likely has an altitude compensating regulator, which meters out oxygen just fine without any additional products.

[carusoam]

Read up on the safety notes for using O2…

Avoiding contact with oils and greases everywhere…

There are probably five lines to the list…

Best regards,

-a-

[Boilermonkey]

Wonder how much risk with beaed oil when wearing a mask?

[M20F-1968]

I have the MH O2D2 and find it quite useful.  My Oc sats stay about 94% to about 96% which is where I want them.  The oxygen saved is dramatic.  No one has mention that you can hear the puff of oxygen with each breath.  It is soothing and relaxing, and give an immediate indication that the system is working.  I also have the Aerox mechanical system which I have not used since the MH O2D2 works so well.  I bought both on e-bay.  They come up occasionally.  I paid less than retail, but the retail price for the MH system is likely worth it.  My oxygen system was taken from an Ovation and retrofitted into my F model.  I downsized from the 115 cubic foot bottle to a 50 cubic foot bottle to save weight.  With the MH O2D2 this size is sufficient. 

John Breda

[Brandontwalker]

I have the MH O2D2 and find it quite useful.  My Oc sats stay about 94% to about 96% which is where I want them.  The oxygen saved is dramatic.  No one has mention that you can hear the puff of oxygen with each breath.  It is soothing and relaxing, and give an immediate indication that the system is working.  I also have the Aerox mechanical system which I have not used since the MH O2D2 works so well.  I bought both on e-bay.  They come up occasionally.  I paid less than retail, but the retail price for the MH system is likely worth it.  My oxygen system was taken from an Ovation and retrofitted into my F model.  I downsized from the 115 cubic foot bottle to a 50 cubic foot bottle to save weight.  With the MH O2D2 this size is sufficient. 
John Breda

Do you have the MH inline regulator, or are you running it straight from the aircraft o2 supply?


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[Will.iam]

35 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

I have the MH O2D2 and find it quite useful.  My Oc sats stay about 94% to about 96% which is where I want them.  The oxygen saved is dramatic.  No one has mention that you can hear the puff of oxygen with each breath.  It is soothing and relaxing, and give an immediate indication that the system is working.  I also have the Aerox mechanical system which I have not used since the MH O2D2 works so well.  I bought both on e-bay.  They come up occasionally.  I paid less than retail, but the retail price for the MH system is likely worth it.  My oxygen system was taken from an Ovation and retrofitted into my F model.  I downsized from the 115 cubic foot bottle to a 50 cubic foot bottle to save weight.  With the MH O2D2 this size is sufficient. 

John Breda

What mask are you using with the o2d2?

[M20F-1968]

1 hour ago, Will.iam said:

What mask are you using with the o2d2?

Up to 18,000 ft., the canula supplied by MH.

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

1 hour ago, Brandontwalker said:

Do you have the MH inline regulator, or are you running it straight from the aircraft o2 supply?


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You need the MH inline regulator supplied with the O2D2.  I use it in addition to the one in the aircraft as part of the built-in system.

John Breda

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

Wonder how much risk with beaed oil when wearing a mask?

If beard oil is really an oil…. Flammable.   
 

Light a sample on fire… (using the usual safety precautions)

 

Lip sticks, lip balms, anything oily….

 

The act of putting concentrated O2 on the oil causes auto ignition….  It lights itself on fire….  No spark required.

Certain conditions are required…

But, people have lit their lips on fire with much surprise…

 

So picture lighting your beard on fire while flying… 

 

Its possible beard oil isn’t really an oil… read its ingredient list, and test in the fireplace…

PP thoughts only, not a UL flame tester…..

Best regards,

-a-