What do you think of these motor mounts...

[Guest]

3 hours ago, flyingchump said:

That's what I'm thinking...  Either it's the wrong mount or there is a spacer that I haven't seen in any of the documentation.  Maybe m20doc is around?

Normally there is one large diameter washer/shim between the mount and the engine.  It should be included with the mount kit and is about 1/8” thick.

Clarence

[mike20papa]

The mounts in the photo are COMPLETELY worthless.  No amount of washers, wishing or hoping will bring them back to life.  The log books should show when last replaced. ( I bet over 500 hrs. and/or 10 yr.s)  Order either Lords or Barry both are made to the same specification.  When you swap them out (and I'm talking on the 180hp motor) take the battery box out and get ready for some work.  The bolts angle in and nothing wants to line up until the motor is up against the mount and the motor is not up against the mount until the bolts are in ... ?!   Best wishes.  But, at least you don't have to remove the motor!  Joe.  Oh, I like the Barrys.  And the mounts you have in the photo with that extra ridge look like 200hp io-360 mounts.   Hats off to the guy who knows what motor mount is also shown.

  

[flyingchump]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

@M20Doc

There was a washer that was included in the package (97-9074-11) but the Barry Controls instructions stated to put the washer by the head of the bolt, firewall side, on both the upper and lower mounts.  That's also how the old Barry mounts were installed.  Its highly possible that the old ones were installed incorrectly but when it agreed with the instructions....  I had no reason to question it.  I'm really not looking forward to taking the engine off the plane again...  That was such a pain.  Any other suggestions or items to research before I commit?

I did some more research on my engine and found out a few things that were noteworthy (although I don't think it makes a difference to the mounts).  My plane which was born in 66 had its original engine (IO-360-A1A) taken off for unknown reasons in 1969 and replaced with a narrow deck IO-360-A1A engine originally mounted to a 1964 Mooney M20E, N7837V.

[Prior owner]

I’m going to take a swag at this... looking at your pic- it is possible that your lower forward engine mount indexing pin is not inside the locatiing hole of the isolator, causing the entire isolator to sit cock-eyed in the mount, and therefore not presenting a parallel surface to the engine flange. Look at the isolator in the mount- it looks not to be seated correctly. Possibly

Edited May 3, 2021 by PilotCoyote

[Guest]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:00 PM, flyingchump said:

There was a washer that was included in the package (97-9074-11) but the Barry Controls instructions stated to put the washer by the head of the bolt, firewall side, on both the upper and lower mounts.  That's also how the old Barry mounts were installed.  Its highly possible that the old ones were installed incorrectly but when it agreed with the instructions....  I had no reason to question it.  I'm really not looking forward to taking the engine off the plane again...  That was such a pain.  Any other suggestions or items to research before I commit?

I did some more research on my engine and found out a few things that were noteworthy (although I don't think it makes a difference to the mounts).  My plane which was born in 66 had its original engine (IO-360-A1A) taken off for unknown reasons in 1969 and replaced with a narrow deck IO-360-A1A engine originally mounted to a 1964 Mooney M20E, N7837V.

The way that Lycoming machined the lower mount area means a shim is required.  Mooney made shims in different thicknesses to change engine position and angle during installation.

Don Maxwell cuts a slot in the washer, essentially making it a “U”. Loosen the lower bolts, lift the engine to relieve the pressure and slide the modified washer in, torque the bolt.

Clarence

[MB65E]

Same issue on mine. I used one large area engine mount washer (laying around from other installs)to make that interference better. Old mounts will just mush into place, new mounts haven’t formed around the corner. 

-Matt 

[Igor_U]

I am interceded in this topic as we'll install the engine on my 67 F in a few days.

I don't remember having any shims with the old robber insulators we removed apart form large washer on the pictures above. Which part below are you referring to the shim, -61 or -82? Would I need to get a few for the install? My new Berry insulators came only with two shocks, big washer and spacer in a box. 

 

[flyingchump]

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The way that Lycoming machined the lower mount area means a shim is required.  Mooney made shims in different thicknesses to change engine position and angle during installation.

Don Maxwell cuts a slot in the washer, essentially making it a “U”. Loosen the lower bolts, lift the engine to relieve the pressure and slide the modified washer in, torque the bolt.

Clarence

That's good exactly what I ended up doing. With that washer in place, everything looks much happier.  I kinda feel like the inaccurate instructions that came with the Barry mounts are to blame here.  I'm betting the last guy (23 years ago) followed the same instructions and didn't put the washers in...  I still have to put the cowls back on and check the spinner alignment but I'll take this win today!

[carusoam]

Great follow-up Chump!

Great pics and details...

Thanks for posting them.

Best regards,

-a-

[Prior owner]

Looks good. I didn’t realize that the IO360 mount doesn’t have isolator alignment pins like the O360 has. One less thing to worry about during install...

[Pasturepilot]

On 5/1/2021 at 7:32 PM, mike20papa said:

Hats off to the guy who knows what motor mount is also shown.

  

Stearman?

[mike20papa]

Yes. And you do have to remove the motor to replace!

[Bob K]

Anyone care to share how many man-hours the shops are charging to change a set of engine mounts? 

[Prior owner]

Depends on a few things- how short your oil hoses, p-leads, CHT & EGT wiring, etc...is (will it have to be disconnected, or is there ample slack to move the engine out a few inches and tilt it down without risking breaking a wire?). Depends on whether or not the engine needs to be re-shimmed after the isolators are installed, whether or not you have an oil/air separator or other add-ones that typically get in the way and need to be unbolted. Typically, the lower cowl will come off (or at least moved forward) and if it’s fuel injected and the fuel lines have been run in front of the lower left isolator nut, then those will have to be R&R’d as well. Plan on 7-8 hrs labor. Perhaps a little more if the engine requires alignment after everything is torqued down. If there’s crappy stuff I there that’s been attached with zip-ties where it should be adel clamps, expect extra time to fix those when your mechanic discovers them...

[carusoam]

Let’s look at this again...

With the wheels pointed down...

-a-

 

[carusoam]

Round firewall

Round engine mount

Lots of yellow paint

and part number when looked up sends you here...

http://www.yesteryearaviation.com/Stearman parts CATALOG.pdf

Ding ding ding.... I think we have a winner...

-a-

[flyingchump]

Reporting back.  I FINIALLY got the plane back together with the new mounts in place...  What a PITA!  The mounts I removed were not installed properly in 1998 so I could not compare what I took out to what I put in...  55 years of people working on this plane and some of them didn't do everything right.  But at least it's done!  Along the way I fixed a few other items that I found.  Poorly connected ground strap, secured cables and hoses properly, fixed a chafing issue, tightened a lose bolt or 2...   

The rain stopped long enough for me to pull the plane out and run the engine (first run with the new mounts)  The startup was amazing!  The fuselage nor and of my instruments shook.  I barely felt the engine on.  I started the engine without the side and upper cowl so I could watch the engine shake in the mounts.  Plenty of movements to cushion the vibes.  I then did a full power high speed taxi (couldn't actually fly, ceilings too low) and it was very smooth.  I'm very happy I changed these out even though some folks said "eh, they look fine"...  

Next week I get the prop balanced.  Its gonna be even smother.

I took a few photos of the old mounts.  They aren't the worst I've seen but they are HARD.  And most had some deformation.  

 

[carusoam]

Great follow up, Chump!

The hardness change is interesting from a polymer point of view...

Sometimes cross-linking continues slowly over time... getting harder and harder...

 

is that something you would be able to tell while they were still in place?

poke it with a tool?  Hit it with a hammer?

At least with the gear donuts... we can measure their compression over time.  Then decide if they have compressed too much to stay...

PP thoughts only, not a chemist...

Best regards,

-a-