G3X / G5 / GFC 500 / GTN 650 Installation time

[Aerodon]

Skip,

Just finishing off this M20J panel, plan to install tomorrow.  Two G3x, Audio panel, GTN650, GNC255, GTX345, GFC500.  This is the first 3/4 panel with radiorax that I have done.  Two G5's semi flush mounted to match the G3x's along side.  I have vinyl labels made, will try something with higher quality.  Note the non standard gear / override switch placement as per customers request.  Also 3 spare with places per customers request.  I would have preferred to put the master/alternator/avionics switch there.

Not the overlay panel for the old engine instruments - now contains ELT and dimmer switch - enough space for a USB outlet there too.

 

Aerodon

 

[carusoam]

Sheet metal magic... by Aerodon!

Who would ever have seen flat panels using so much 3D thinking...  

Nice work Don!

Thanks for sharing the details...

Best regards,

 -a-

[MIm20c]

@Aerodon Through the process I found a really nice shop that does silk screening.  Top quality work and reasonable prices.  Let me know if you want to try them out. 

[PT20J]

44 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Skip,

Just finishing off this M20J panel, plan to install tomorrow.  Two G3x, Audio panel, GTN650, GNC255, GTX345, GFC500.  This is the first 3/4 panel with radiorax that I have done.  Two G5's semi flush mounted to match the G3x's along side.  I have vinyl labels made, will try something with higher quality.  Note the non standard gear / override switch placement as per customers request.  Also 3 spare with places per customers request.  I would have preferred to put the master/alternator/avionics switch there.

Not the overlay panel for the old engine instruments - now contains ELT and dimmer switch - enough space for a USB outlet there too.

 

Aerodon

 

That's a beautiful panel. I especially like the bottom radius on the right side to match the left.

I think it makes a lot of sense to put the gear safety bypass button under the gear switch instead of above as Mooney did. That way, the gear wheel moves out of the way when you need the button. I'm still deciding about moving the the master/alternator/avionics switches down to left of the control shaft. I am going to move the alternate static knob way to the left. I like to hang my headset on the back of the yoke and it bashes into the knob if I move the elevators during preflight. 

What color did you use? -- several people have been asking about paint to match the original beige Mooney panels. I'm going to do mine in gray with white legends though.

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

Why is the left edge not straight, it looks like it was cut by a drunk?

[Aerodon]

16 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Why is the left edge not straight, it looks like it was cut by a drunk?

Good eye.  It is indeed not vertical because the CB panel in the Mooney is not straight 9as built by the factory).  We looked at it and determined it could not be adjusted, so I adjusted the panel to fit.

If it were my plane, I would cut a new CB panel and mount it parallel to the rest of the panel like the later model Mooneys.

Aerodon

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Good eye.  It is indeed not vertical because the CB panel in the Mooney is not straight 9as built by the factory).  We looked at it and determined it could not be adjusted, so I adjusted the panel to fit.
If it were my plane, I would cut a new CB panel and mount it parallel to the rest of the panel like the later model Mooneys.
Aerodon
 
 

One more thing, the flush mount requires extra room around the edges, how much room do you need? For example if I had the G5 and G3X side by side, how much extra space between them is necessary?

[Aerodon]

On 5/4/2021 at 1:23 AM, ArtVandelay said:

One more thing, the flush mount requires extra room around the edges, how much room do you need? For example if I had the G5 and G3X side by side, how much extra space between them is necessary?

Art, with a single G5, the flush mounting holes and spacers could be placed above and below the G5, allowing for very close side by side spacing.  But I would want to leave .5-.75" material between the G5 and G3x for strength.  Personally, I think the GI-275 is a better way to go, even if you have a a spare G5.

Aerodon

[Ragsf15e]

On 4/7/2021 at 8:06 PM, PT20J said:

I'm  getting quotes for installing this equipment and I'm curious how many hours others might have been charged for a similar installation. I'm interested in shop time rather than total cost because equipment pricing and shop rates vary.  I realize every airplane is a bit different, but I'm just trying to get a feeling of a reasonable range of installation time.

Skip

Has the gi-275 ahrs failure on the other thread made you rethink anything?  Are you going to install an antenna just for the G5 or -275 backup in case you lose power in the weather?

Personally I don’t feel as comfortable as I did before realizing that they completely crap out without pitot or gps.  I guess I should have realized that before.  I’m trying to find a way to hook up an external antenna to my hsi g5 and leave that gps enabled.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Has the gi-275 ahrs failure on the other thread made you rethink anything?  Are you going to install an antenna just for the G5 or -275 backup in case you lose power in the weather?

Personally I don’t feel as comfortable as I did before realizing that they completely crap out without pitot or gps.  I guess I should have realized that before.  I’m trying to find a way to hook up an external antenna to my hsi g5 and leave that gps enabled.

Well, the whole thing is a concern to me. Garmin doesn't really explain very well how a lot of their stuff actually works. The thread about GFC 500 servo failures on Beechtalk is not confidence inspiring either. I emailed Garmin support a few days ago asking a number of detailed questions about G5 GPS options and effect of GPS and pitot failures. I haven't received a response yet. Perhaps they are busy and haven't gotten to it yet. Or maybe it requires getting a response from engineering which always takes longer. Or maybe they have a problem. I don't know. But, I'll post the Q&A if I receive something.

Skip

[Ragsf15e]

37 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Well, the whole thing is a concern to me. Garmin doesn't really explain very well how a lot of their stuff actually works. The thread about GFC 500 servo failures on Beechtalk is not confidence inspiring either. I emailed Garmin support a few days ago asking a number of detailed questions about G5 GPS options and effect of GPS and pitot failures. I haven't received a response yet. Perhaps they are busy and haven't gotten to it yet. Or maybe it requires getting a response from engineering which always takes longer. Or maybe they have a problem. I don't know. But, I'll post the Q&A if I receive something.

Skip

I guess nothing is completely bulletproof, but it sure would be nice to have completely thought through failure sequences and publish it.  I don’t mean double or triple failures, but pitot ice and gps failure can happen with just a loss of power.  For G5s, that also takes out the electric turn coordinator. GI275s may not even have a separate TC.  Maybe you have 30 minutes of ships battery, maybe not.  If the electric ahrs are that reliant on gps/pitot input and completely fail without, I’d like to have known that.  That kind of info could possibly have kept an electric gyro adi (rc allen) or at least mount the antenna to the G5 itself.  Honestly, the more I think about it, an external antenna for the G5 should probably be required in IFR installations.  It can still get nav information from the panel gps, but it can maintain ahrs function with its own self contained gps.

[ArtVandelay]

So does the G3X have the same limitations as the G5?

[PT20J]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

I guess nothing is completely bulletproof, but it sure would be nice to have completely thought through failure sequences and publish it.  I don’t mean double or triple failures, but pitot ice and gps failure can happen with just a loss of power.  For G5s, that also takes out the electric turn coordinator. GI275s may not even have a separate TC.  Maybe you have 30 minutes of ships battery, maybe not.  If the electric ahrs are that reliant on gps/pitot input and completely fail without, I’d like to have known that.  That kind of info could possibly have kept an electric gyro adi (rc allen) or at least mount the antenna to the G5 itself.  Honestly, the more I think about it, an external antenna for the G5 should probably be required in IFR installations.  It can still get nav information from the panel gps, but it can maintain ahrs function with its own self contained gps.

I agree. My current panel is a bit of a mish-mash: Aspen PFD, GNS 430W, KX 165, KAP 150, GTX 345 Bluetoothed to iPad w/Foreflight, steam gauge backups. It works (minus reliability issues of some of the older equipment) but I became interested in designing backup plans for various failures. The place to start is a Failure Modes and Effects Analysis. I didn't get very far before I discovered that failure effects were unclear. Understanding that the iPad gets attitude info from the GTX 345, I tried to find out how robust the AHRS in the GTX is. The GTX requires a GPS input for ADS-B which it gets from the GNS. AHRS generally require a velocity input to correct drift and this can come from GPS. But the manuals don't mention this. So, I asked Garmin support what the effect a loss of GPS input would be on the GTX AHRS. Support punted the question to engineering and the answer came back (and I quote), "It should still work."

I thought that by replacing the legacy stuff with an all new Garmin panel (G3X Touch, G5, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255A, GFC 500) that I wouldn't have to worry about any of this because Garmin would have designed it as a system to all work together. But after spending considerable time reading manuals (including some of Garmin's top secret installation manuals I had to borrow) I don't believe it's true. These components do all play together, but I do not believe that they were designed as a fault-tolerant system. Maybe they were, but it is certainly not described in the manuals.

Skip

[201Mooniac]

48 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I guess nothing is completely bulletproof, but it sure would be nice to have completely thought through failure sequences and publish it.  I don’t mean double or triple failures, but pitot ice and gps failure can happen with just a loss of power.  For G5s, that also takes out the electric turn coordinator. GI275s may not even have a separate TC.  Maybe you have 30 minutes of ships battery, maybe not.  If the electric ahrs are that reliant on gps/pitot input and completely fail without, I’d like to have known that.  That kind of info could possibly have kept an electric gyro adi (rc allen) or at least mount the antenna to the G5 itself.  Honestly, the more I think about it, an external antenna for the G5 should probably be required in IFR installations.  It can still get nav information from the panel gps, but it can maintain ahrs function with its own self contained gps.

I added the external antenna for this specific reason after speaking with Steve from Garmin about failure modes.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

So does the G3X have the same limitations as the G5?

Not sure, however, no battery backup, so if the electrical failure scenario happens, no g3x.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I agree. My current panel is a bit of a mish-mash: Aspen PFD, GNS 430W, KX 165, KAP 150, GTX 345 Bluetoothed to iPad w/Foreflight, steam gauge backups. It works (minus reliability issues of some of the older equipment) but I became interested in designing backup plans for various failures. The place to start is a Failure Modes and Effects Analysis. I didn't get very far before I discovered that failure effects were unclear. Understanding that the iPad gets attitude info from the GTX 345, I tried to find out how robust the AHRS in the GTX is. The GTX requires a GPS input for ADS-B which it gets from the GNS. AHRS generally require a velocity input to correct drift and this can come from GPS. But the manuals don't mention this. So, I asked Garmin support what the effect a loss of GPS input would be on the GTX AHRS. Support punted the question to engineering and the answer came back (and I quote), "It should still work."

I thought that by replacing the legacy stuff with an all new Garmin panel (G3X Touch, G5, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255A, GFC 500) that I wouldn't have to worry about any of this because Garmin would have designed it as a system to all work together. But after spending considerable time reading manuals (including some of Garmin's top secret installation manuals I had to borrow) I don't believe it's true. These components do all play together, but I do not believe that they were designed as a fault-tolerant system. Maybe they were, but it is certainly not described in the manuals.

Skip

I don’t think there’s any way to make something completely fault proof for ifr flight, but Ive thought a little about my absolute minimum needs to get the airplane down safely without significant luck... I thought about it in terms of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.  

1.  I once thought my 2x G5s covered this, but now?  I think having a vacuum or battery backup gyro in the panel is better. You could get away with a Dynon “pocket panel” or possibly even a stratus to ipad, but I like the certified gyro.  At least with an ADI, I can keep the clean side up or “aviate”.  

2.  I believe I could successfully navigate with my ipad or phone on its internal gps, even on a non precision approach.
 

3.  Finally I would prefer an “emer” avionics switch that jumps radio 2 to the battery so I could share my troubles with atc (and get help - weather, vectors, pireps, whatever).  

I thought the G5s backing each other up with 4 hour battery packs was solid for Aviate.  I keep 2 phones and an ipad charged, so that’s good for Navigate.  I don’t want to rewire my airplane, so I settle for a portable (and likely useless) radio in my flight bag for Communicate.

Even with a brand new glass panel, you could install an rc allen with battery backup.  You’d likely cover 99% of possible issues.  No connection to anything else, no software, old technology.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Ragsf15e

[Skates97]

I replaced my turn coordinator with an RCA 2610-3, it is a simple install of power and ground and very easy to fly. Comes with a battery backup and has slip/skid as well as turn rate. Well worth the money in my opinion to have a solid backup to the G5's in my panel.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

I replaced my turn coordinator with an RCA 2610-3, it is a simple install of power and ground and very easy to fly. Comes with a battery backup and has slip/skid as well as turn rate. Well worth the money in my opinion to have a solid backup to the G5's in my panel.

Looks like a nice unit. I see it comes with or without pitot/static velocity aiding. From your description, it sounds like you installed the one without. Do you notice any pitch or bank errors during acceleration/deceleration?

Skip

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Looks like a nice unit. I see it comes with or without pitot/static velocity aiding. From your description, it sounds like you installed the one without. Do you notice any pitch or bank errors during acceleration/deceleration?

Skip

#102-403-11-09, Pitch Sync, Slip/Skid, Turn Rate, Battery Backup, no pitot/static. I haven't noticed any errors, it has been solid. We have done quite a bit of unusual attitudes during my IFR training and I haven't noticed any issues. For flying on instruments it is easier to fly than the G5 as there is nothing else on the screen. For "partial panel" work he turned off both the G5's and I just flew the 2610, the compass card, Air Speed Indicator, and Altimeter. The 2610 made me feel like I was cheating.

[Ragsf15e]

23 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

#102-403-11-09, Pitch Sync, Slip/Skid, Turn Rate, Battery Backup, no pitot/static. I haven't noticed any errors, it has been solid. We have done quite a bit of unusual attitudes during my IFR training and I haven't noticed any issues. For flying on instruments it is easier to fly than the G5 as there is nothing else on the screen. For "partial panel" work he turned off both the G5's and I just flew the 2610, the compass card, Air Speed Indicator, and Altimeter. The 2610 made me feel like I was cheating.

Stupid question-why does this thing work without gps or pitot inputs while a g5 doesn’t?

Normal question... is the “esn-100” the big/expensive battery pack it needs?  Would be nice if it was part of the unit.

[Skates97]

55 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Stupid question-why does this thing work without gps or pitot inputs while a g5 doesn’t?

Normal question... is the “esn-100” the big/expensive battery pack it needs?  Would be nice if it was part of the unit.

I can't answer the first one. For the battery backup just select that option, it is an internal battery backup. It adds $180 to the price. I haven't been able to find anything saying how long the battery backup lasts. I should just pull the breaker on it on a flight and see how long it will go. I have pushed the button to have it go to battery after shutting off the master and just let it run for a bit, from a short test and watching the percentage of power go down I am inclined to believe it is only about a 1 hour backup battery. I think I will give it a test on battery Friday when we fly to St George.

[PT20J]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Stupid question-why does this thing work without gps or pitot inputs while a g5 doesn’t?

I don’t think that’s a stupid question at all. One possibility is that the AHRS technology continually improves and newer designs might have less need for correction. Here’s all the RCA documentation has to say. 

 

It seems this one can let you down in a pinch, too.

[PT20J]

I seem to recall that the FAA requires an hour for battery backup.

[PT20J]

I talked to RC Allen and SBC Systems (manufacturers of AHRS units of varying accuracy and expense). According to SBC, all AHRS units include 3 axis MEMS accelerometers and gyros and some include 3 axis magnetometers. According to SBC, if you have magnetometers included in the AHRS, you don't need external aiding BUT the MEMS magnetometers are not all that accurate so the AHRS will not keep up well during maneuvers that create high accelerations. Also the heading accuracy is not as good with the internal magnetometers. Whether you design in a unit with internal magnetometers or use GPS aiding depends on the required accuracy and cost target. According to RC Allen, the RCA2610 AHRS includes 3 axis magnetometers and its AHRS is accurate enough without aiding for single-engine GA airplanes. The heading accuracy isn't important since they do not display heading. I note that the RC Allen literature admits that the unit cannot keep up with high turn rates even with pitot/static aiding. The explanation about screen refresh doesn't make much sense to me --it seems more plausible that the AHRS cannot keep up with the acceleration. I'm not knocking the unit -- it seems like a nice device. I'm just trying to understand how these AHRS work and especially what happens when they don't.

Skip

[Skates97]

23 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I talked to RC Allen and SBC Systems (manufacturers of AHRS units of varying accuracy and expense). According to SBC, all AHRS units include 3 axis MEMS accelerometers and gyros and some include 3 axis magnetometers. According to SBC, if you have magnetometers included in the AHRS, you don't need external aiding BUT the MEMS magnetometers are not that all that accurate so the AHRS will not keep up well during maneuvers that create high accelerations. Also the heading accuracy is not as good with the internal magnetometers. Whether you design in a unit with internal magnetometers or use GPS aiding depends on the required accuracy and cost target. According to RC Allen, the RCA2610 AHRS includes 3 axis magnetometers and its AHRS is accurate enough without aiding for single-engine GA airplanes. The heading accuracy isn't important since they do not display heading. I note that the RC Allen literature admits that the unit cannot keep up with high turn rates even with pitot/static aiding. The explanation about screen refresh doesn't make much sense to me --it seems more plausible that the AHRS cannot keep up with the acceleration. I'm not knocking the unit -- it seems like a nice device. I'm just trying to understand how these AHRS work and especially what happens when they don't.

Skip

I wonder what is a "high turn rate." Apparently steep turns at 45° bank angle doesn't count.