THIS is why I bought a Mooney

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

You’re right, an acclaim probably doesn’t start out climbing an ovation with 310hp until after 500’, but it doesn’t take until 5000’ for sure. 
That is, unless you have one of those magic ovations that I keep reading about, you know, the ones that will  climb at 2000fpm then cruise at 196ktas on 11.5gph.  
I wasn’t fortunate enough for either of my ovations to be magical, I never saw those numbers. 

I like you give full gross real numbers. In cold air the 310hp can climb like a rocket ship. However, when things get hot the performance drops off significantly. Especially if you are trying to keep CHT’s down to reasonable levels. 196kts would sure be nice...

[hubcap]

On 4/6/2021 at 3:04 PM, Tim Jodice said:

Why is that impressive? I ask not to be fresh or disrespectful but I have always wondered why the K models are considered by many the ultimate Mooney. 

An Ovation will do that at non nose hose altitude for 2 gallons an hour more or bring it to 14,000 and it does the same speed on the same fuel flow. I based that off the POH.

It seems unless you go beyond 16,000 an Ovation will hang with a K burning the same gas if you should choose to and have the option to run dragon mode at oxygen altitudes.

Are Ovation POH numbers on the optimistic side? Assuming max power ROP 2700RPM what have people experienced as to what altitude does the Ovation run out of steam that it can no longer keep up with a K?

Full disclosure, I only have 3 Hours right seat in a K and 2 left seat and 5-6 right seat in a Ovation.

 

I did not intend to imply that the performance I am getting was superior to anyone's Ovation, Bravo, 252 etc etc.................But, when you are accustomed to flying Piper and Cessna singles, the numbers are far better in a Mooney.

I will say that after having the turbo, I don't ever see going back to a non-turbo. 

Did not intend to sound like my plane is better than your plane.

Edited April 8, 2021 by hubcap

[carusoam]

All this crazy talk about more UL and fancy landing gear....

I suddenly would like to add a pair of snails, and intercoolers, and an O₂ system to my M20R...  

The 310hp gives crazy acceleration, and climb rate...  but, without the snails... it is self limiting...

310hp Acclaims are indeed rare birds...

Best regards,

-a-

[KLRDMD]

On 4/6/2021 at 8:22 PM, carusoam said:

With the 310hp option... climbing out at 2kfpm is hard to beat...

The most impressive climb rate for any airplane I've personally owned is . . . undetermined. It was in my Colemill Baron, solo, cool OAT and half fuel. I pegged the VSI at 4,000 FPM. Other than "more than 4,000 FPM" I can't say exactly what the climb rate was. Of course, the initial climb is done at 55 GPH (powering back to a LOP climb of 35 GPH at 1,000 AGL).

[carusoam]

I like the performance of the NA IO550...

I can see the value of getting to the flight levels with a TN’d IO550...

That would take a few more stars to align...

But, getting a pair of TN’d IO550s in any plane... at 30gph each...

I would need to align more than stars...  whole galaxies... maybe... 

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

I am in agreement with what Paul is saying about his aircraft. I run mine LOP differently than he does and get pretty good speed. I use the turbo to produce more MP, which let's me use more fuel and develop more power. The turbo is now on 1,200 hours doing that, gets scoped, and is fine. The compressions are actually trending up in most of the cylinders and level in the others. I noticed two things this week that I have seen before, but they just always amaze me. Took off one morning on the north parallel with a Cessna ahead of me. It wasn't a 172, it was a faster Cessna, maybe a 210, but we both made the same turn and climbed to the same altitude, and tower had to work with me to get me safely around the other plane and on my way. They were on course behind me all the way, but farther and farther behind, and don't rag on me about the turbos being slow until "x" altitude, all this happened at a cruise of 3,000 feet. I was doing about 150 true. The trip was out to Willmar for service on a prop governor and it turned out the prop governor was going to have to come off and go back to the rebuild shop so Eric flew me back to FCM, dropped me off, and took the plane back to Willmar. It was the first time in 12 years of ownership that I have ever watched my own aircraft takeoff and fly away. Man! is that a pretty sight. First, the engine has a muted purr that you just don't hear with the C's and P's. The aircraft profile is slim, unique in the air. Then Eric turned downwind to go to cruise and it looked sort of like the Millenium Falcon going to light speed, there was a significant jump in speed once the aircraft hit pattern altitude and leveled off and then it was gone. 

[gsxrpilot]

The most impressive climb I've ever seen... was in @Yooper Rocketman JetA burning Lancair. We went from the ground, 1000 MSL to 15,000 ft and I think we were still in the pattern!

[geoffb]

I'm jealous.  Miss Piggy (my 262) is a solid 10 kts slower at that altitude and fuel flow.  I know the TKS and hot prop are taking some.

[exM20K]

My 310HP Acclaim will easily sustain 1200-1500fpm climbs at 120 KIAS to 17,000.  Slightly less at 130. CHT and oil stay very cool as compared to, say, a PA46.

 

It’s a game changer.

-dan

Edited April 10, 2021 by exM20K

[Mike A]

It has taken me 7 years to understand that getting the cowl flaps closed on my K is the biggest speed gain I can ask for. 
 

Cylinder 3 frustrates me because I feel like it is single handedly holding me back. 

Yes I know it was really cold but still...

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, Mike A said:

It has taken me 7 years to understand that getting the cowl flaps closed on my K is the biggest speed gain I can ask for.  Cylinder 3 frustrates me because I feel like it is single handedly holding me back. 

Often #3 is still the factory spark plug probe which may read 50-75º higher than the aftermarket CHT probes placed in a different location. If so, that may be changed.

[Mike A]

35 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Often #3 is still the factory spark plug probe which may read 50-75º higher than the aftermarket CHT probes placed in a different location. If so, that may be changed.

My factory CHT is definitely in the front. #5 I believe. 

[geoffb]

Mine’s on #1, but that’s on a -MB

[carusoam]

Mike,

If #3 is holding you back...

Lets start a thread and work on it...

-a-

[exM20K]

5 hours ago, Mike A said:

t has taken me 7 years to understand that getting the cowl flaps closed on my K is the biggest speed gain I can ask for. 

Funny.  I had the opposite problem of too-high CHT’s if rigged fully closed.  Especially in the warm weather months, I’d rig them to trail open maybe a finger’s width to keep cool.

-dan

[Rick7576]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:34 PM, gsxrpilot said:

As a 252 Encore owner, I'll say that ALL Mooneys are great. From the M20B to the M20V they are all unbelievably efficient and yet very fast airplanes. 

But when you zero in and start splitting hairs, the 252's really seem to be the top of the heap for me. 

My real world numbers are 9.5 gph and as fast as 195 knots TAS at that fuel flow up at the top of it's available altitude. That gives me an engine out glide ring of well over 50 miles. It also gives me more than 1000 miles of range with reserves, all on standard tanks. 

I can top most weather. Ignore terrain even in Colorado. And just like an Ovation can sacrifice fuel and range to go fast, I just have to strap on the O2 mask to get the speed and even better range. Add 1100 lbs of useful load in the Encore spec, and it's a pretty capable traveling machine.

Hey Paul       So 252AD is now an Encore!! Congratulations. I'll let you get 100hrs or so then find out how GREAT your bird is.

[exM20K]

5 hours ago, Mike A said:

I have started to look at it this way - going from trail to closed is worth 5-7 ktas. The net fall off LOP to get to a point where #3 stays at 38X def is typically just a handful netting me some decent numbers. Yes this is OAT dependent and probably more a formula for winter instead of summer. 

Just to be clear, I would run the jamb nut down a little to trail 0.5-1" when selected "Closed."  I don't recall any meaningful speed loss, but it was a long time ago, and I'm getting old...

-dan

[RJBrown]

On the 231 based Rocket the cowl flaps were set up so they never quite closed. They were always in trail when closed. They had two positions open and in trail. I always climbed with open flaps. Before leveling off and accelerating I would close them. At higher speed they were hard to close and impossible to open. No more than 1” trail or it would slow you down. 

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, RJBrown said:

On the 231 based Rocket the cowl flaps were set up so they never quite closed. They were always in trail when closed. They had two positions open and in trail. I always climbed with open flaps. Before leveling off and accelerating I would close them. At higher speed they were hard to close and impossible to open. No more than 1” trail or it would slow you down. 

I have read and also some sense of trial and error that if those cowl flaps are closed too much - more than that 1” - that not only does cooling become poor but I feel it gets slower perhaps because of back pressure?

btw cooling is generally excellent in that in the heart of winter I climb with cowl flaps closed.

[carusoam]

G-OBAL Looks great in the Movies...

Great examples of ground transportation too...
 

 

[steingar]

Mrs. Steingar didn't like the Mooney at first.  She didn't like it at all.  When I got us back from DC in 2 hours she liked it just fine.

[Shadrach]

On 4/11/2021 at 3:42 PM, RJBrown said:

On the 231 based Rocket the cowl flaps were set up so they never quite closed. They were always in trail when closed. They had two positions open and in trail. I always climbed with open flaps. Before leveling off and accelerating I would close them. At higher speed they were hard to close and impossible to open. No more than 1” trail or it would slow you down. 

That’s odd. I would think the forces would either be biased in one direction or the other or perhaps in equilibrium. Being difficult to move in either direction suggests that the operating mechanism was deforming under load.

[RJBrown]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

That’s odd. I would think the forces would either be biased in one direction or the other or perhaps in equilibrium. Being difficult to move in either direction suggests that the operating mechanism was deforming under load.

The stop is an over center one. You pull the knob to open the cowl it opens fully then back a few degrees. To close you are pushing against the airflow at first.  The stop position is adjustable. If it is adjusted too far it really gets hard to close. Not far enough it won’t stay open. The piece that did this on my plane was made out of sheet metal and the adjustment was by bending. It was easy to get out of adjustment. I considered making a stronger piece out of a block of aluminum on a Bridgeport but never did. Unapproved parts and all. 
Stopped on the ground it is easy to open and close. At speed you are pushing against airflow. Fully against airflow to open. Very difficult to move from closed to open at speed. Impossible to open above 200kts. Much easier to close at 100tks. Once closed I felt it was closed for the trip. Once closed a cruise climb, or a zoom climb is fine with the flap in trail but a maximum performance climb with trailing cowl flaps would cause unwanted heating.

(Opinion) This is actually an advantage of 231 based Rocket over a 252 based one. 252 uses a small electric motor to open the cowl flap that is not really up to the job. They are quite expensive and, at one time, impossible to find.

in either version I would only open them on the ground. To open them against the air flow pressure felt to me like I way trying to break something. If the already small and fragile 252 motor was used to open the cowl in flight regularly I fear it would not last.

my 252 opinions are not based on any specific 252 knowledge just extrapolating 231 knowledge. Those with 252/encore Rockets feel free to enlighten me.

Edited June 11, 2021 by RJBrown

[MarkM20C]

My C does OK after sorting out my Carburetor issues. This was last week at 15.5K, 24/2400 around 11.5 gph. I could have probably leaned more, but am being a bit conservative after exhaust valve on cylinder 3 was leaking after 300 hours (New Lycoming Cylinder). I was having a problem with it running lean at altitude when using turbo. Carburetor overhaul fixed problem.